Europe 24/25

[jamesdeluxe]

I don't particularly appreciate sitting around a European hub at 7/8 a.m. after a redeye waiting for a connection to a ski gateway like Geneva or Lyon. (Geneva only has direct flights from NYC and WashDC.) Trying to over-caffeinate in the airport lounge is not fun, combined with a possible night drive. Zurich/Milan/Munich have more direct options.

Agreed. That said, I've successfully connected inside Europe to smaller airports and still managed to get in arrival-day turns after landing in Salzburg via Frankfurt (skied at Werfenweng), Nice via Zurich (skied at Isola), and Innsbruck via Vienna (skied at Alpbach), so it can be done; however, you have to be nimble with your transfer to a rental car -- not for amateurs!

 

[ChrisC]

I skied at Aviemore and Glencoe in Scotland in 1980 when I lived in N England, but didn't know there was lift-served skiing in England until I spent 3 days staying with a skibuddy at his family's place in the Lake District last month.

None of my London/S England friends have skied Scotland during the winter. It would be interesting if the weather cooperated—snow, winds, fog, and clouds. But plane tickets to the Alps are the same as those to Scotland, so why bother?

 

[ChrisC]

I believe ChrisC has commented that in a significant number of seasons Zermatt's prime Hohtalli terrain never gets adequately covered. I know 2022 was one of those because that's where we would have gone our first week in late March before our Val Thorens reservation. I think the conclusion of that discussion is that Zermatt should not be advance booked for experts until snow is on the ground. If that happens early, a booking for late season is still OK because snow preservation is among the very best in the Alps.

I first skied Zermatt in the summer/early July 2004, and while ascending to the glacier, my reaction was - damn, this place is rocky as hell! What was more enjoyable during that trip was Cervinia's upper slopes were open from the Plateau Rosa cable car with complete coverage. Interestingly, despite north exposure, the HSQ Furggsattel from Trockener Steg did not have very good coverage, 1/2 down. After a few glacier T-bar runs in Zermatt, we spent most of the time in Italy/Cervinia. A few days later, we were swimming in the Mediterranean in Cinque Terre.

I have not monitored the Hohtalli operations. I always assumed they were 100% open by February or so. However, this has not been the case these last two years.

Zermatt-Cervinia has an ambitious lift expansion plan. Currently. Cevinia is replacing the Goillet triple with HS6 (best low expert off-piste) with 2 new S3 Gondola/Cable cars going from base to summit (Cevinia-Plan Maison-Plateau Rosa). Zermatt will have a new Stockhorn tram in Hohtalli sector (Hohtalli to Stockhorn) and another big lift in Gornergrat area.

At the end of March 2022 there had been a 3-week dry spell, Mottaret and Le Menuires were sloppy, so we never ventured lower into Meribel.

Meribel proper has OK skiing compared to the rest of the 3 Vallees, primarily due to exposure; the terrain faces mostly East or West rather than North. The exception is the Mont Vallon area.

Otherwise, the best skiing is in Val Thorens/Les Menuires: La Masse, Cime Caron, Orelle and Courchevel: Saluire Tram/Couloirs, Chanrossa and Croix Noire. It's also easy to find lower elevation off-piste since most lower slopes are not rocky and mostly grassy meadows - you can ski 4000 vert feet into St. Martin de Belleville.

That said, St. Anton is not Jackson, which varies only modestly from its prevailing ESE exposure. In the Arlberg you have scattered but expansive areas of north facing: over half of Rendl, Stuben and Warth plus a few sectors in Lech-Zurs and some far flung places Piste-to-Powder can show you.

I agree. The best off-piste runs were mostly north-facing Rendl bowls, Rendl to Pettneu am Arlberg, Stuben to Langen am Arlberg and almost anything in Zurs (Zurs-Trittkopf to Stuben and Zurs-Madloch to Lech). We used lots of cabs to get to/from remote routes.

Surprisingly, almost all skiers avoided Schindlergrat off-piste, which is immediately visible from the lift. The day after a snowstorm, we lapped lines all morning in fresh snow undisturbed without guides. Avy rating of 2 or 3. Like having Mammoth's Chair 2 as your private ski area for the day.

Obviously, if you go in March, you should do ValLuga North off the Vallugabahn cable cars (#2). We did not do it since Piste2Powder will no longer take Advanced groups on it- however, many extreme things were fine. Also, no guides would guarantee it - and besides, there is just so much terrain - it did not matter. We had many repeats in Zurs and Stuben - plus new terrain in Lech and Warth.



Overall, if the guys cannot coordinate a single arrival time for cars/buses, I would just say, "Fly to Zurich, and you get a train to St. Anton." Don't whine because 2-4 trains leave every hour and have places for ski bags. Then, take a cab or walk 5-15 minutes to lodging. Even if you base in Lech - longer cab ride.

 

[ChrisC]

That said, I've successfully connected inside Europe to smaller airports and still managed to get in arrival-day turns after landing in Salzburg via Frankfurt (skied at Werfenweng), Nice via Zurich (skied at Isola), and Innsbruck via Vienna (skied at Alpbach), so it can be done; however, you have to be nimble with your transfer to a rental car -- not for amateurs!

Impressive! Assume you land by 10/11 am in a smaller airport, no lost bags or delays. There are lots of potential places near Innsbruck. Nice - haha.

I have mostly done Chamonix/Grands Montets (Geneva), Sauze d'Oulx (Milan), Engelberg (Zurich), and Andermatt (Milan).

 

[Tony Crocker]

Obviously, if you go in March, you should do Valugga North off the Vallugabahn cable cars (#2). We did not do it since Piste2Powder will no longer take Advanced groups on it-

So who will take you to north side Valluga now? I know it's temperamental for snow stability, but it's one of the bucket list runs in the Alps and a must-do if conditions are safe enough.

I have never skied arrival day in the Alps. I know I'm not going to start doing that at age 72.

 

[ChrisC]

So who will take you to north side Valluga now? I know it's temperamental for snow stability, but it's one of the bucket list runs in the Alps and a must-do if conditions are safe enough.

Here is the email response I received from Piste To Powder for Season 2018/19:

Dear Chris​

​

Thanks for getting back to me. We are pleased to offer you all of the following options for your dates:​

​

OPEN GROUPS for skiers only (EUR 130 per person/day, Level 1,2,3, Mon-Fri)​

​

PRIVATE DAY GUIDING for skiers and snowboarders (EUR 380 first person per day, plus EUR 60 for further participants, daily)​

​

All Safety equipment is included in the price. Please bring your own helmet, goggles and backpack. If you need to rent equipment, Jennewein Sports offers a 10% online discount. ​

​

If there will be still places available, you can switch to other days. However, we cannot guarantee that there will be places available.​

​

If you would like to ski Valluga Backside, you would need to hire a private guide. Furthermore, the guide would have to take into consideration the weather forecast and avalanche level on the given day.​

​

Please simply confirm your date, number of skiers, your level and which option you prefer and I can finalise your booking. Or if you have any other questions, please let me know!​

​

We are looking forward to guiding you to the best snow in the area!​

​

Kind regards,​

​

Mike​

An earlier message to Piste to Powder.

Hi Mike,​

​

Re: Valluga Backside. You never bring groups up there? I had a friend who skied it with your guide service a few years ago. ​

​

Thanks,​

​

Chris​

​

​

​

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 5:29 PM Piste To Powder | Mountain Guides St.Anton <info@pistetopowder.com> wrote:​

Hi Chris,​

​

Thank you for getting back to me. Sometimes we have to do that, but it happens rather rarely. At the end, it is always up to our guides to decide based on given conditions. Safety of our clients is our top priority, hence we don't want to risk anything if the conditions are really bad. However, our guides can almost always find some nice runs to do, even if the weather is not ideal.​

​

If you want to ski the back of Valluga, you would need to hire a private guide and the avalanche risk level cannot be higher than 2. The cost of the private guide option is €380 for the first person in the group per day, plus €60/day per every other person joining the group.​

​

Please let me know if you have any other questions! Are you ready to book?​

​

Kind regards,​

Mike​

​

www.pistetopowder.com​

info@pistetopowder.com​

office: +43 664 1746282​

And here is the response I received from another St. Anton Guide Service—St. Anton Classic Ski School, Ski & Mountain Guides: (Looking back on this email, I should have done a half-day or five-hour trip with my brother. The price is not bad for Top 5 or 10 Alps Classic, and the Valluga North, you end in Zurs, which I thought had the best off-piste for the rest of the day. Cheaper than my solo half-day at Verbier.)

St. Anton Classic​

Ski School, Ski & Mountain Guides​

St. Anton am Arlberg​

directly next to the GALZIG LIFT​

Tel. +43 5446 3311​

​

​

Dear Chris​

​

We are very pleased to hear that you are interested in booking with our Ski School here in St Anton am Arlberg but we only offer private lessons and guiding.​

​

Stantonclassic stands for local, knowledgeable and top Austrian qualified ski instructors as well as UIAMG mountain guides with vast experience; our guides are often skiing the route off the back of Valluga.​

​

The ski instructors of St. Anton Classic all teach the world famous Austrian ski technique. From beginners to advanced and experienced skiers, we offer personalised ski tuition. Learn skiing easily or perfect your technique – all of this in one of the best skiing areas in the Alps.​

​

For the desired time and period on 1st February 2019 we can offer, based on our general terms and conditions (see link below), as follows:​

​

The rates for our ski school are per instructor per day for 1 person,​

each additional person is € 25,- (incl. 20 % VAT)​

​

All day (6 hours) start time from 9.00am € 380,-​

All day (5 hours) start time from 9.00am € 335,-​

Half day (3 hours) starts at 9.00/9.30am or 12.30/1.00pm € 245,- ​

 

[ChrisC]

On the Piste To Powder website, I saw that they employ smaller group sizes for Valluga Backside/North. However, this is common for more extreme terrain in the Alps. Employed at Courmayeur (Heli or Mont Bianco backside), steeper Mont Blanch lines, and our guide in Val d'Isere. Andermatt, La Grave, and Engelberg Guides did not seem to care as much.


Piste To Powder Private Groups Link
Ski the Valluga (maximum group size 4, Level 3 skiers only)

 

[ChrisC]

Here are a bunch of links:

Valluga - West P2P Link, FatMap Link (Strava kept the descriptions, but searchable maps for off-piste routes are gone).

Valluga - North FatMap Link

 

[EMSC]

Aaannnnddddd.........

"Val Thorens/Meribel" it will be for annual guys trip. Still sorting exact dates (prob ~March 9-17 ish?). Seems likely a smaller sub-group of us for ~9 days and the "NYC" crew for only 4 or 5 actual ski days. Just remember the NYC group have flown in and out of SFO driven up/back to Tahoe (at crazy hours of the overnight/early morning) and gotten only 3 ski days on a trip before for example.

Looks like far too many German and French holidays for at least a month prior to that mid-March time frame to choose any other dates though.

Who are best guides in 3 Valleys? Any heli or other interesting options for the advanced portion of the group?

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm glad you tweaked the dates to get past Mardi Gras Week.

When Liz and I were at Club Med Val Thorens, the package included ESF guides for the first 5 out of the 6 ski days. I think the Club Med would be good for a guy's trip, but it is a fixed Sunday to Sunday schedule.

I'll defer to ChrisC on other guide services. I agree with him that you can probably get around Trois Vallees well on your own possibly with a guide book and definitely after you have been guided a couple of days. Heliskiing is illegal in France. From what I read, most of the heliskiing is in Italy.

 

[ChrisC]

Lift Tickets:
Seven days at Les 3 Vallées (~$450), the World's Largest Ski Resort is cheaper than a window rate of 1.5 days at Vail/Aspen/Park City or 2.5 days at Alta (which used to have one of the most affordable lift tickets Out West). I am sure some of your crew will have EPIC passes for seven free days.

Lodging:
Do you have a preference for a 3 Vallées base yet?
It does not matter too much. Meribel - more central, British/English, chalets & apts/fewer inns. Val Thorens - higher, snowsure, more international. Both have a Folie Deuce apres-ski bar. Wherever you find a good deal, most everything (90%+) will be ski-in/out or just a few minutes walk to the lift/slope.

Some things to consider:
There are some relatively new apartments in both locations. I stayed in one in Meribel (Mottaret) in January 2006. Again, they will be smaller than US condos.
And if you can find a chalet, that might be even better with meals/catering and accommodating larger groups, but I think they want mostly one week. (?)
Ideas: https://www.seevalthorens.com/chalets/ Or https://www.seemeribel.com/chalets/


Transportation:
There is so much terrain in the Tois Vallees; you do not need to take a day trip to another area unless you really want to experience Val d'Isere, Les Arcs or Ste. Foy (local powder favorite).

On my first trip to 3 Vallees and Val d'Isere/Tignes in 2006, I took the bus (I forget the name?) from Lyon Airport to/from ski resorts. On the same trip, my group rented a car from Lyon to La Grave (as well as Serre Chevalier and Les Deux Alpes when La Gave was closed).

Depending on what you want to do or visit, you might want to take the bus. The road up to Val Thorens from Moutiers/Valley is a bit treacherous, long, and narrow for the traffic it sees. A day trip to/from Val d'Isere will be nearly 2 hours each way despite being less than 60 miles away.


Ski Guides:
I did not use any when I skied Val Thorens/Les Menuires/Orelle/La Masse (Meribel & Courchevel closed) in April 2018, so I do not have any recent knowledge - or personal recommendations. However, I knew where I wanted to go, and the most popular freeride routes generally have a few tracks.

I recommend hiring a guide for at least two days, focusing on 1. Val Thorens/La Masse and 2. Courchevel/some Meribel. Possibly a third day if it snows to provide safety and how to avoid crowds. It's easy to justify with your own group, and the cost of lift tickets is low. In Val d'Isere/Tignes last year, we were able to cut lift lines as well. That is not always the case everywhere.

When in doubt, I often use the Local Guide Office - they will usually have the best rates. In the past 5+ years, I have used the following in other areas: Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix, Alpine Guides Society of Courmayeur, Guides de Verbier, Engelberg Mountain Guide (with Tony), etc. Val d’Isere and St Anton have English-speaking groups/outfits you can join.

I would try the local Meribel or Val Thorens Guide Offices, ESF Guides, or Oxygene (name-brand instruction/off-piste company for all the French majors). Things to watch for:
1. Max Group Size. It could be only 6 or up to 8. Verify. This will impact the $/day per person. If you get a harness out or crampons to access a couloir/belay, the group size will be 4.
2. Equipment. Determine whether they will provide you with an airbag and other gear (beacon, shovel, probe, etc). Most do, but sometimes it can be a surcharge. Unlike North American operations, they will let you use your own equipment if you want.
3. Credentials. Sometimes, ski instructors serve as guides but lack the IFMGA Mountain Guide credential. This means they cannot lead you over glaciers—I found this out when comparing guides/prices to ski The Backside of Mont Fort at Verbier.
4. Guides can meet you at your lodging or a specific lift. (For example, for the first tracks at Val d'Isere, starting at the Le Fornet sector can be necessary.)

Examples:
A very good deal: ESF Val Thorens - 440 Euros for up to 8 people. https://www.esf-valthorens.com/experiences-plus/neiges-et-montagne/

Most seem to be around 600 Euros for a group.

Mountain guides Meribel

Discover and book the best mountain guides in Meribel. Our trusted locals have shortlisted them, so you don't have to.

www.seemeribel.com

Mountain guides Val Thorens

Discover and book the best mountain guides in Val Thorens. Our trusted locals have shortlisted them, so you don't have to.

www.seevalthorens.com

Tipping: It's expected to pay for a guide's lunch daily and possibly an after-ski beer. My UK friends lectured me not to tip more - so I didn't around them. However, I would tip when a guide took me a run/itinerary I requested (individually or as a group), or found excellent conditions.

Scheduling: You might want to consider how many guiding days upfront. Guides can get booked up, and it's better to have often the same one who gets to know your group. It's not always easy to simply add days while you are there.

Heli-Skiing
It's not allowed in France. They can pick up/drop off groups in France, but you are skiing in Italy. Reading lightly, they will likely send you to the Aosta Valley - near La Thuile. http://www.heli-ski.it/en/heliski-freeride-aosta-valley/heliski-la-thuile-en/


Guide Books / Off-Piste / Freeride
Unfortunately, few excellent guidebooks are available for the 3 Vallees. You might pick up what they have at a guide bureau.

• The Vamos Book. You would want the 2004 version if you can find it. https://lockwoods.com/products/edit...dphzMCGInKfpCfXz0IT67CtEOIFa0JwdjA0eFIprMA5fH
• This is good - it comes in hardcover and softcover. Can buy in Fance https://www.amazon.fr/clés-Vallées-plus-beaux-hors-pistes/dp/2952249822

Strava destroyed Fatmaps, which I would have recommended. They would have shown all the freeride routes and the ski lift/piste map. It's minimal now.

Here is a classic route:

Lac du Lou from Caron (Vallon du Lou) | 4.1 mi Backcountry Skiing Route on Strava

Lac du Lou from Caron (Vallon du Lou) is a 4.1 mi Backcountry Skiing Route. Discover this route and more at Strava. Visit today!

www.strava.com

A lot of off-piste is evident from the lifts. Here are some links saved over the years.

Val Thorens info

Val Thorens off piste itineraries

Some of the off piste itineraries in Val Thorens, the Belleville Valley, and the Three Valleys, plus off piste safety considerations, equipment, guide books and guides

valthorensguide.co.uk

Courchevel info

Off Piste Skiing in Courchevel [A Local’s Guide] - Courchevel.VIP

One of the biggest secrets about Courchevel is the off piste skiing. Here's the best places to start making epic power turns.

courchevel.vip

The 5 Best Off-Piste Runs in Courchevel - Ski New Gen

If you're looking for some of the best off-piste skiing or snowboarding in Courchevel, look no further than these five runs. From the steep and challenging to

www.skinewgen.com

 

[ChrisC]

Seems likely a smaller sub-group of us for ~9 days and the "NYC" crew for only 4 or 5 actual ski days. Just remember the NYC group have flown in and out of SFO driven up/back to Tahoe (at crazy hours of the overnight/early morning) and gotten only 3 ski days on a trip before

NYC Group: Go ski Tahoe, then grab a flight to Geneva? Lol - that might be asking for trouble. One Sierra mega-storm/atmospheric river can destroy that plan - with losses of ski days, lodging, and airfare in both the USA and France. And why jump around -3 hrs to CA, and then +9 hrs to Europe? A European ski trip could become a European ski weekend.

Many American skiers would lose a day in South America with delayed flights to Santiago or Buenos Aires because connection times in the USA are 1-3 hours. Summertime thunderstorms would screw everything up! You need to rebook rental cars, notify lodging, hopefully get rebooked, file any insurance claims..... blah, blah, blah.....

 

[Tony Crocker]

I interpret EMSC's comments about the NYCers Tahoe itinerary being on a different trip. It was an example of them not wanting to take a whole week. I agree that the Trois Vallees trip should be a whole week.

 

[Sbooker]

@Tony Crocker you have Europe plans this year? Going to pull the trigger last minute to assess snow conditions first?
@jamesdeluxe Europe intentions this season?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

@jamesdeluxe Europe intentions this season?

Of course, I always have intentions. Unfortunately, after being part of a sizable blood-letting at work, I'm "between jobs" (such an upbeat expression!), in a wartime economy, and can't plan anything.

 

[ChrisC]

Any heli or other interesting options for the advanced portion of the group?

RE: Heli-skiing.
You could write and ask for a quote for La Thuile, Italy (the closest), just over the border in Italy. This part of the relatively unknown mega-resort of La Rosiere-La Thule (Espace San Bernardo). Not sure where the location of the runs are compared to the ski area.

I understand that La Rosiere/La Thuile is the high-snowfall area of Tarentaise Valley since it faces a Western storm directly without many blocking mountains. A vague understanding of Italian heli-skiing is that La Thuile area generally has better snow than Courmayeur/Mont Blanc since it is less exposed to winds and has higher snowfall. Guides were not afraid to throw you on steep stuff after one run.

Group sizes are 4 persons, and you are responsible for filling the group or paying more. However, the Italian Heli Operations (which seem to be related) allow for half or full days, which can be a relatively good value.
Half Day: Heliski Courmayeur / Mont Blanc, Italy: February 3, 2023
Full Day: Heliski Courmayeur / Mont Blanc, Italy: January 30, 2018

Some ski resort reports:
La Thuile, IT & La Rosiere, FR, Feb. 2, 2024
La Thuile, Italy / La Rosiere, France (Espace San Bernardo): February 6, 2023


Small-Group Guide
If you were to do some really advanced skiing in Les 3 Vallees, they might ask for a smaller group (4) if any belay is involved. Just tell them you want to do more advanced couloirs - or a more extended tour into a remote valley that might involve pickup.

Typically, you can access a lot of terrain with just easy hikes/tours from the lifts. My favorite areas are Courchevel's Couloirs, Cime Caron tram/Orelle, and La Masse. But this terrain is not as extreme as La Grave, Verbier, Val d'Isere, etc.

 

[Tony Crocker]

you have Europe plans this year? Going to pull the trigger last minute to assess snow conditions first?

This year is complicated. Liz wants to go to India for this once-every-12-years-festival Feb. 1-12. Any tourism in India is likely to conflict with ski season because the weather is so hellish at other times. Should we go to Gulmarg while in India? I've read lots of reports, and Gulmarg strikes me as being like Las Lenas except without avalanche control, which means you need to be very lucky. Matt Appleford's Adventure Project, which went to Gulmarg several times, is now going to Uzbekistan. That trip in 2025 is Feb. 18-28, which lines up well, considering that the tourist sites in Uzbekistan of Samarkand, Bukhara and Khiva are worth seeing in between. Tack on the Taj Mahal and Jaipur on the front end and we will be gone something like Jan. 27 - Mar. 1. Then Iron Blosam week is Mar. 7-14.

So we are likely to ski within North America before the big trip. Anything to the Alps would be after Iron Blosam and would depend upon how the season in Europe develops. Easter is late Apr. 20 in 2025, so last minute in the Alps before Apr. 13 should be easy.

 

[EMSC]

interpret EMSC's comments about the NYCers Tahoe itinerary being on a different trip. It was an example of them not wanting to take a whole week. I agree that the Trois Vallees trip should be a whole week.

I wasn't clear enough in my initial description, but this is the correct interpretation. I was referencing past trips where the NYC crew will spend huge $$ and time in cars for travel only to ski a fairly small amount. Thus explaining that this year they want to go all the way to Europe for maybe 4 days of skiing max. Vs the 6-8 days on snow that the experts sub-group is looking at doing by adding more time.

 

[ChrisC]

I wasn't clear enough in my initial description, but this is the correct interpretation. I was referencing past trips where the NYC crew will spend huge $$ and time in cars for travel only to ski a fairly small amount. Thus explaining that this year they want to go all the way to Europe for maybe 4 days of skiing max. Vs the 6-8 days on snow that the experts sub-group is looking at doing by adding more time.

Oh yeah - all that effort for 3-4 days. Most of your trip is just transit.

And if the weather is snowy in Europe? Half of your four days are potentially gone if you get one medium-to-big storm. With whiteout, wind, and avalanche remediation, it can easily take 24-48 hours for a ski resort to recover.

 

[ChrisC]

I was trying to see if anything valuable was left from FATMAPS for Les Trois Vallees. No—Strava destroyed everything for Winter Sports and Maps. (Strava needs to convert everything to a social media competition for times in running, biking, etc. It's so weird what they are trying to do with this property—speed mountaineering and hiking?)

Also, every other significant European freeride mountain has a recent guidebook (last 5 years) with excellent maps, overlays, descriptions, etc.: Chamonix/Courmayeur, Verbier, St. Anton/Arlberg, Dolomites, and even less obvious ones like Davos, Jungfrau, Engadine/St. Moritz.

Les Trois Vallee's most recent freeride guidebook is from 2004. Weird.

So, I saw these photos depicting some of the best Courchevel: Saulire Couloirs, Chanrossa, and Col de la Loze to get a good visual.

The Powderhounds site does an excellent job with European Ski Resorts, focusing on powder and freeriding. Link