Is the ski resort model dead?

[soulskier]

Skiing is simply one of many, many activities that have a large carbon footprint - it's arguably nowhere even close to the worst in terms of total impact. Take Hawaii - there are somewhere around 60 million annual visitor days based on 7 million+ arrivals. So just one beach destination is equivalent to nearly the entire U.S. ski market, in terms of days spent. Trust me, no one is using public transport to get there. Same with the Disney resorts - their Florida visitation numbers alone are nearly 45 million, again nearly the same as all U.S. ski days total. In relation to the overall destination entertainment market, skiing is a niche. It does seem likely that the transportation-related carbon hit for a ski resort (or a Disney resort) far outweigh the carbon hit the resort operation entails, so I would argue that skiing is in the same category as any other plain-old family vacation.

The fact is that nearly everything we do is pretty harmful to the environment. Everything a resort does to minimize (or offset) their impact is a positive, but until we figure out ways to travel with minimal emissions we're really not affecting much in terms of carbon.

Take a look at this ambitious proposal in North Lake Tahoe/Truckee to reduce car travel in the area.

http://www.tahoetram.com/

If this were ever developed, and people used the "Subway in the Sky" instead of their cars, it would surely make a positive difference.

 

[rfarren]

Take a look at this ambitious proposal in North Lake Tahoe/Truckee to reduce car travel in the area.

http://www.tahoetram.com/

If this were ever developed, and people used the "Subway in the Sky" instead of their cars, it would surely make a positive difference.

I've always like subways, and mass transit so it saddens me to say the following: There is no way that is at all economically feasible. Look at NYC. The subway is used by over 2 million people a day, and still there are budget shortfalls, and that's used all year round! Maintenance and upkeep alone will be a fortune.

Furthermore, that doesn't sniff at the the real heavy carbon creation which is getting to truckee from SF or flying into reno from other parts of the country. I doubt also that ti would be useful on days where they crushed with wind, snow, and huge crowds.

 

[Tony Crocker]

There is no way that is at all economically feasible. Look at NYC. The subway is used by over 2 million people a day, and still there are budget shortfalls, and that's used all year round!

Yes, NYC is undoubtedly the best case scenario for mass transit in terms of compact area with high density. Here in SoCal, there are numerous job centers; downtown only has something 11% of the jobs. Therefore it's very hard to find a specific fixed route with high density for mass transit. The most obvious one, the Wilshire corridor between downtown and the Westside, is once again being proposed over the next decade.

All of this will cost money, but, IMHO, will be more cost effective than thinking we're going to power up our society with a few wind turbines at ski areas. If we want to live in a modern society (and the rest of the developed and undeveloped world is trying to catch up to us)

The developing world is not going to use energy in a green manner out of altruism or based upon fear of a nebulous worst case climate scenario. They will follow the lead of the developed world only if it makes economic sense for them. That is much more likely along the lines of the proposals berkshireskier makes.

 

[soulskier]

Mt Rose in Tahoe just installed 3 vertical wind turbines to offset electricity to their new lodge.

http://fwix.com/reno/share/de48f42776/m ... y_turbines

Total cost $40,000 with an expected ROI of 7 years.

 

[Marc_C]

Might want to give this a read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/science/earth/08fossil.html?_r=1

[Unfortunately the NYT requires free registration - make up stuff]

 

[rfarren]

Might want to give this a read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/08/science/earth/08fossil.html?_r=1

[Unfortunately the NYT requires free registration - make up stuff]

I read that article earlier this week, and thought abou tposting it up here. I'm glad you did.

 

[flyover]

The downturn in demand for wind turbines has already directly impacted the economy of Southwestern MN, a place where it is possible to drive for an hour or more in most directions and always be in sight several windmills.

http://www.startribune.com/business/106 ... 3LGDiO7aiU

 

[soulskier]

"Dearest friends,

We are gathered here today to mourn the passing of the Lake Tahoe Ski Bum, who has met an untimely death at the hands of soaring real estate prices and shrinking job opportunities, whose tens of thousands of dollars in post-college debt snuffed out the dream of making eight bucks an hour washing dishes just to score some gnarly runs."

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/14/317895 ... z15Nl3sx00

 

[Marc_C]

 

[rfarren]

"Dearest friends,

We are gathered here today to mourn the passing of the Lake Tahoe Ski Bum, who has met an untimely death at the hands of soaring real estate prices and shrinking job opportunities, whose tens of thousands of dollars in post-college debt snuffed out the dream of making eight bucks an hour washing dishes just to score some gnarly runs."

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/14/317895 ... z15Nl3sx00

:-({|=
Not much sympathy over here.

 

[Patrick]

:-({|=
Not much sympathy over here.

Spoken like someone from an upper class family with a solid financial background.


Right back at you. :evil:

 

[Marc_C]

Spoken like someone from an upper class family with a solid financial background.

Ohh, a second alarm in the same thread...

Really, quit yer bitching. Skiing has been a rich-person's endeavor ever since its inception as a pastime activity.

 

[rfarren]

:-({|=
Not much sympathy over here.

Spoken like someone from an upper class family with a solid financial background.


Right back at you. :evil:

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for he who decides to go to college, and then subsequently puts himself in debt by ski-bumming. We all make choices in our lives, and that's fine, but it bothers me quite a bit that these are the same people who want me, who works hard for his vacations, to pay for their lifestlye choices.

 

[soulskier]

"The vision was to rebuild the ski industry into a real estate driven enterprise with million dollar slope side condos, heated six person chairlifts, groomed glade runs and private members only locker rooms with boot heaters and thai masseuses for rich wankers to spend a week or two at a year."

Unofficial Squaw, November 13, 2010
A New Vision For the Future of the Ski Industry - MRA
http://www.unofficialsquaw.com/index.ph ... /5977.html

 

[Patrick]

Really, quit yer bitching. Skiing has been a rich-person's endeavor ever since its inception as a pastime activity.

Tell that to someone that was brought up by a single mom working as a waitress all her life. No rich parents either, she came from a poor rural family which her dad had low paying jobs to earn a living for his 18 kids, jobs like groomed ski runs with snowshoes in the 40s and working as a waitress all her life.

I guess no one told them that skiing wasn't possible for them as it was a sport for the rich. :evil:

 

[Marc_C]

Really, quit yer bitching. Skiing has been a rich-person's endeavor ever since its inception as a pastime activity.

Tell that to someone that was brought up by a single mom working as a waitress all her life. No rich parents either, she came from a poor rural family which her dad had low paying jobs to earn a living for his 18 kids, jobs like groomed ski runs with snowshoes in the 40s and working as a waitress all her life.

I guess no one told them that skiing wasn't possible for them as it was a sport for the rich. :evil:

First you complain that skiing is too expensive and mostly for those that can afford it. Now you're complaining that it really isn't a sport for the rich and that it's fine for a single mom etc. Sorry, can't have it both ways....unless you just like to whine about stuff.

 

[Mike Bernstein]

"The vision was to rebuild the ski industry into a real estate driven enterprise with million dollar slope side condos, heated six person chairlifts, groomed glade runs and private members only locker rooms with boot heaters and thai masseuses for rich wankers to spend a week or two at a year."

Unofficial Squaw, November 13, 2010
A New Vision For the Future of the Ski Industry - MRA
http://www.unofficialsquaw.com/index.ph ... /5977.html

I know all of that makes a nice rallying cry and all, but most of that list isn't even representative of 10% of the ski areas in the country.

I'm not aware of any heated six person lifts anywhere in the country. There can't be more than a small handful of areas that have glades which are both referred to as "glades" and are victims of grooming. There are certainly private members only locker rooms at a number of the higher end places, but while that may offend some who dig on class warfare, it seems to be that it's a perfect way to raise a lot of cash w/o impacting the skiing experience or the environment at all. If some jamoke wants to drop a lot of coin so he can boot up and store his stuff in private - great. More revenue for the mountain to put back into on-hill infrastructure that maters. So long as that sort of building doesn't replace a day lodge, and I'm not aware of any example fitting that description, then what's the problem?

As for million dollar slopeside condos - there is certainly a lot of that, though much less than you think. The other stuff is a laundry list of garbage that either doesn't exist (heated six seaters), barely exists (groomed glades), or is noteworthy only to people who define themselves by what they don't have as opposed to what they do.

 

[Marc_C]

... to earn a living for his 18 kids,...

Can't let that one go at all.

If you have problems/can't provide for the number of kids you have, THEN STOP BREEDING LIKE F-ING RABBITS!!! I have absolutely no sympathy for this kind of crap reasoning.

 

[Tony Crocker]

First you complain that skiing is too expensive and mostly for those that can afford it. Now you're complaining that it really isn't a sport for the rich and that it's fine for a single mom etc. Sorry, can't have it both ways....unless you just like to whine about stuff.

I believe Patrick's contention is that skiing was a more viable option for the financially constrained single mom when he was a kid than it is now.

I think Patrick and soulskier overstate the case here. It's easy to point out things like real estate and day lift ticket prices that have gone up much more than inflation while ignoring things like season passes, clothing and air travel that are much cheaper now relative to people's incomes.

The whole issue of affordability is much more complex than soulskier makes it out to be. I don't think the creative "ski bum" type is in that much trouble relative to 30 years ago. I'm a bit more concerned about how many $ it might take for Patrick's single mom to get her kids on skis, even assuming only a couple of them per MarcC's point. And with regard to the real estate issue, stringent development/environmental rules play a role in driving the prices sky high. Limit the supply with level or increasing demand and it will get more expensive. This is the way it's been in Aspen since I started skiing in the 1970's.

 

[Patrick]

... to earn a living for his 18 kids,...

If you have problems/can't provide for the number of kids you have, THEN STOP BREEDING LIKE F-ING RABBITS!!! I have absolutely no sympathy for this kind of crap reasoning.

Okay, let see if you were a woman in rural Quebec in the 30s and 40s, Ireland and other catholic dominated society. What would have you have done? Those from that generation didn't have that many options. Just Say 'No' ?

Catholic dominated province where contraception wasn't an option. Worst, if you didn't have kids the priest would come to see you and say that you weren't "going God's will".

First you complain that skiing is too expensive and mostly for those that can afford it. Now you're complaining that it really isn't a sport for the rich and that it's fine for a single mom etc. Sorry, can't have it both ways....unless you just like to whine about stuff.

What I've been saying from the start is people from less fortunate background what always been skiing (yes, even in the 1930s), no need to be from the rich upper class, however it's always been a fight to be able too. What I've able always arguing is that skiing need to cater to bigger market and get back to basic, not be all a bunch of places with heated chairlift. I guess you came from a fortunate background or/and never really skied for the skiing to know what I'm talking about.

For the record, my mom was revolutionary to a point, she got divorced in the 60s and remained a single working mom. The 18 kids family, she was part of that family, my mom only had one kid.

About the life of the ski bum now and then, I think there were more ways of bumming, but I would diver to those you did. I didn't ski bum, but I know a few people that did. Plus my dad who was a ski instructor / football player for over 15 years would probably fall into that definition.