Is the ski resort model dead?

[Marc_C]

What I've been saying from the start is people from less fortunate background what always been skiing (yes, even in the 1930s), no need to be from the rich upper class, however it's always been a fight to be able too.

Hence the comments that it's always been a rich person's sport.

What I've able always arguing is that skiing need to cater to bigger market and get back to basic, not be all a bunch of places with heated chairlift. I guess you came from a fortunate background or/and never really skied for the skiing to know what I'm talking about.

No, I know exactly what you're talking about - it's that 2-day-old granola in the beard, duct-tape patched and stained 20 yr old ski jacket, proud to be an outcast and not one of those horrific "tourists", "soulful" vibe - that I find just plain annoying.

I didn't start skiing till I was 30 - my parents couldn't afford it when I was a youngster, and from college on I was far more interested in XC skiing, winter mountaineering, and ice climbing for winter activities. And the minute I could afford it, I got out of camping in the back of my truck and started getting a room in a nice B&B. And the black chair seats at Alta are really nice on a bright and sunny but cold day!

 

[Patrick]

No, I know exactly what you're talking about - it's that 2-day-old granola in the beard, duct-tape patched and stained 20 yr old ski jacket, proud to be an outcast and not one of those horrific "tourists", "soulful" vibe - that I find just plain annoying.

Love the stereotype :roll: , the only person that I've seen skiing with a 20 yr old jacket is Tony and he's no granola loving hippie.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The 18 kids family, she was part of that family, my mom only had one kid.

No coincidence there I suspect. :lol:

the only person that I've seen skiing with a 20 yr old jacket is Tony

The lifespan of that jacket was 1997-2008. But between SoCal and spring skiing at Mammoth the sun did a number on its color. Up there in the Great Gray North you're not used to having the sun out when you're skiing. :stir:

What I've always been arguing is that skiing need to cater to bigger market and get back to basic, not be all a bunch of places with heated chairlift.

I think there's some East/West issues here. Most western markets have a couple of few frills, more basic areas like Patrick advocates. In the East, you have to have to have snowmaking (unless you're MRG which is a niche area with high snowfall for its region) to be competitive. Once you're laying out the capital and energy bills for snowmaking, you have to charge more for tickets and put in some of the higher margin frills to help cover the costs.

 

[Patrick]

The 18 kids family, she was part of that family, my mom only had one kid.

No coincidence there I suspect. :lol:

Being #4 in that family, the first two which are 2 and 3 years older than my mom had 5 and 6 kids respectively. I have 55 cousins on that side of the family, making an average of 3+ kids per family.

the only person that I've seen skiing with a 20 yr old jacket is Tony

The lifespan of that jacket was 1997-2008. But between SoCal and spring skiing at Mammoth the sun did a number on its color. Up there in the Great Gray North you're not used to having the sun out when you're skiing. :stir:

What about that one-piece? Tony, you can't have it both ways. Gray? You've never had a season pass at Tremblant (not that it's a good thing). Clear Crisp Cold Blue Skies.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Tremblant .... Clear Crisp Cold Blue Skies.

Don't you mean Clear Crisp Cold Blue Snow?

Yes I still have the 1992 one piece. But it sees only a limited number of days per season, most of them in the Great Gray North.

 

[rfarren]

Yes I still have the 1992 one piece.

Ugh... the one piece. If the title of this thread was "Is the One Piece Dead?" I would have to agree. Sadly, to my shame and my embarrassment my father still wears a one piece. Even in spring conditions. 8-[ :-(

 

[Geoff]

What about that one-piece? Tony, you can't have it both ways. Gray? You've never had a season pass at Tremblant (not that it's a good thing). Clear Crisp Cold Blue Skies.

I thought all motion stopped at Absolute Zero?

 

[Geoff]

No, I know exactly what you're talking about - it's that 2-day-old granola in the beard, duct-tape patched and stained 20 yr old ski jacket, proud to be an outcast and not one of those horrific "tourists", "soulful" vibe - that I find just plain annoying.

That's what provoked me, too. ...along with the whole "somebody else needs to...." and the "now that I'm here, I'm slamming the door so nobody else can join me" thing.

 

[rfarren]

No, I know exactly what you're talking about - it's that 2-day-old granola in the beard, duct-tape patched and stained 20 yr old ski jacket, proud to be an outcast and not one of those horrific "tourists", "soulful" vibe - that I find just plain annoying.

That's what provoked me, too. ...along with the whole "somebody else needs to...." and the "now that I'm here, I'm slamming the door so nobody else can join me" thing.

It does seem there is a healthy amount of class warfare behind this whole thing. My real problem is with that little blurb:

"Dearest friends,

We are gathered here today to mourn the passing of the Lake Tahoe Ski Bum, who has met an untimely death at the hands of soaring real estate prices and shrinking job opportunities, whose tens of thousands of dollars in post-college debt snuffed out the dream of making eight bucks an hour washing dishes just to score some gnarly runs."

The above statement tries to create empathy for someone who has complete lack of personal responsibility. Soaring real estate prices have to do with the market: i.e. demand is higher than supply, and the price is created by what people are willing to spend. It's not some crazy conspiracy. Lack of job opportunities have to do with the market again. Jobs that will help pay off debt are rarely to be found in mountain towns. There are jobs, but one has to be willing to move to a city. Lastly, why should I empathize with someone who takes out huge college debt and then works in dish tank to catch turns. If you're going to take out debt you ought get a job which should help you pay it off. Instead, you hear some hypothetical rant that "someone else should pay higher taxes so I can go to college for free", that way "I can, guilt free, ski-bum."

About the life of the ski bum now and then, I think there were more ways of bumming, but I would diver to those you did. I didn't ski bum, but I know a few people that did.

So what? Economics change, how people live change. What people expect from life change. Business changes, and frankly how ski resorts run change too. I don't see why ski resorts need to focus their business models around ski bums who don't really have the disposable income to fill the coffers of a ski area. What seems to be entirely missing from this whole discussion is the elemental fact that Ski Areas are business, not charities.

 

[Patrick]

So what? Economics change, how people live change. What people expect from life change. Business changes, and frankly how ski resorts run change too. I don't see why ski resorts need to focus their business models around ski bums who don't really have the disposable income to fill the coffers of a ski area. What seems to be entirely missing from this whole discussion is the elemental fact that Ski Areas are business, not charities.

Where would the ski world be today without the ski bums? Some of them influenced the ski world as we know it today.

 

[soulskier]

So what? Economics change, how people live change. What people expect from life change. Business changes, and frankly how ski resorts run change too. I don't see why ski resorts need to focus their business models around ski bums who don't really have the disposable income to fill the coffers of a ski area. What seems to be entirely missing from this whole discussion is the elemental fact that Ski Areas are business, not charities.

There's a big difference between a $97 lift ticket, $15 cheeseburgers and heated chairlifts vs a charity.

 

[soulskier]

It does seem there is a healthy amount of class warfare behind this whole thing. My real problem is with that little blurb:

"Dearest friends,

We are gathered here today to mourn the passing of the Lake Tahoe Ski Bum, who has met an untimely death at the hands of soaring real estate prices and shrinking job opportunities, whose tens of thousands of dollars in post-college debt snuffed out the dream of making eight bucks an hour washing dishes just to score some gnarly runs."

The above statement tries to create empathy for someone who has complete lack of personal responsibility. Soaring real estate prices have to do with the market: i.e. demand is higher than supply, and the price is created by what people are willing to spend. It's not some crazy conspiracy. Lack of job opportunities have to do with the market again. Jobs that will help pay off debt are rarely to be found in mountain towns. There are jobs, but one has to be willing to move to a city. Lastly, why should I empathize with someone who takes out huge college debt and then works in dish tank to catch turns. If you're going to take out debt you ought get a job which should help you pay it off. Instead, you hear some hypothetical rant that "someone else should pay higher taxes so I can go to college for free", that way "I can, guilt free, ski-bum."

It isn't about personal responsibility. No one is asking for a handout or freebie. Why don't you read the book "The History of America's Disappearing Ski Bum", watch "Resorting to Madness" or read "Downhill Slide" and then engage in this conversation? Because right now, no offense, but you live in Manhattan, and there is no way you can know what is happening in ski towns around the country, especially the west coast.

For the record, I never went to college, nor am i debt, and I can afford to ski where I want.

 

[Patrick]

For the record, I never went to college, nor am i debt, and I can afford to ski where I want.

And to show that me and soul skier have a different background. I grew up within 5-10 minutes walk from the old Montreal Forum, I lived in the central core of Ottawa and earn my living in a cube far from a six-digit. I won't go back on my family background except, I went to university and grad school, paid everything myself and got in a shitload of debt. First trip out West was when I finished my bachelors degree (which I paid myself), first trip to the Alps was 3 years later. Never had any spring break trips and I skied every weekend at the old Mont Tremblant Lodge ski area as it was called back then. As a kid the only family skiing I did outside the Laurentians/Townships (trip away from Tremblant ended once my mom bought a small place in the village where she was born - might have 6 at that time) was on the odd day trip to Jay and once we went to Whiteface in 1980.

Yet I agree with him on the general objective of what he's trying to do and state of the current situation of skiing in general.

 

[Marc_C]

Where would the ski world be today without the ski bums? Some of them influenced the ski world as we know it today.

Strawman much?
It would be the same, or different, or something in between.
So what.

 

[Tony Crocker]

$97 lift ticket,

season pass far cheaper than 30 years ago

$15 cheeseburgers

brown bag????

heated chairlifts

This is a straw man if I ever saw one. How many of these actually exist in the U.S., other than the new one at The Canyons?

Adults can make their own choices according to their circumstances. I'm sure most of you think I spoiled Adam growing up, taking him to 82 ski areas by the time he got out of college. But now that he's skiing on his own dime it's with a season pass, shared ski house and brown bagging at $37 a day.

As I've stated before IMHO the aspect where ski expense needs most urgently to be addressed is for families with young children. Reading between the lines of Patrick's family history I think he would agree. But given the type of area soulskier touts, this subject does not appear to be on his radar.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I skied on one of those heated sixers in Lech, Austria in 2006. It accesses some pretty nice terrain (pic below) and accomplishes what it's supposed to. But you feel like such a nancy-boy (on several levels), it wasn't worth the tradeoff. An older guy sitting next to me -- head to toe in garage sale-ready equipment -- turned to me at one point and said, "Ah, das tut dem Arsch gut!" Tough to translate into English, but he liked it.

 

[Marc_C]

$97 lift ticket,

season pass far cheaper than 30 years ago

It's also disingenuous to quote the highest end of the highest ticket price when there are so many ways to get a discount. In 2008, the walk-up non-discounted Vail ticket was $92, yet the average actual price skiers paid for a day ticket was $47 [figures from Liftopia].

And as Tony mentioned, let's not forget things like the Colorado Epic Pass - $629 gets you unlimited access to Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Heavenly (Lake Tahoe), Arapahoe Basin, Northstar-at-Tahoe and Sierra-at-Tahoe with no blackout dates.

$15 cheeseburgers

Just like the heated chairlifts, where, exactly, are these $15 cheeseburgers? And are we talking about just the burger or a full lunch?

 

[rfarren]

So what? Economics change, how people live change. What people expect from life change. Business changes, and frankly how ski resorts run change too. I don't see why ski resorts need to focus their business models around ski bums who don't really have the disposable income to fill the coffers of a ski area. What seems to be entirely missing from this whole discussion is the elemental fact that Ski Areas are business, not charities.

There's a big difference between a $97 lift ticket, $15 cheeseburgers and heated chairlifts vs a charity.

If you're paying $97 for a lift ticket than you're the stupidest person ever, and deserve to have that money taken from you. I went to vail for 3 days last year, and 4 days the year before. Each day I spent around $55 for a lift ticket. There are a myriad of ways to save, including having a friend with the epic pass (he paid around $600) to help you get discount tix. Many of those day lodges have grills outside where you can grill your own meat. We ate a hot lunch of Italian sausages for slightly more than $2 a person.

Where would the ski world be today without the ski bums? Some of them influenced the ski world as we know it today.

So what? A few ski bums become good enough skiers to have their pictures taken in magazines, get filmed in ski movies and make money through sponsorship. In that case they are certainly ambassadors to the sport, but that is very rare.

It isn't about personal responsibility. No one is asking for a handout or freebie. Why don't you read the book "The History of America's Disappearing Ski Bum", watch "Resorting to Madness" or read "Downhill Slide" and then engage in this conversation? Because right now, no offense, but you live in Manhattan, and there is no way you can know what is happening in ski towns around the country, especially the west coast.

Really, I should read a book who's author is obviously biased in order to take part in a discussion because I live in NYC? I suppose Marc_C or Tony shouldn't talk either because Marc lives in SLC, and Tony lives in LA?

Where you and I disagree is that I don't think of the Ski-Bum as some sort of "against the man" archetypal hero. I see your complaining about high rent as sour grapes. In NYC we know what it means to have high rent move you from one neighborhood to the next in the name of gentrification. The difference is we don't sit on our thumbs and whine, we move and make the best of our new situations while we strive to make careers to allow us to pick and choose where we would like to live (or we leave). New comers to NYC often live in Bushwick or some other crap neighborhood until they can afford a better one. I just don't see what the big deal is about that a few ski bums have to commute from nearby communities rather than live at the base of a mountain.

One other thing that you and disagree with is the cost of skiing. I believe that for locals skiing is the cheapest it's ever been.

 

[Geoff]

[

It isn't about personal responsibility. No one is asking for a handout or freebie. Why don't you read the book "The History of America's Disappearing Ski Bum", watch "Resorting to Madness" or read "Downhill Slide" and then engage in this conversation? Because right now, no offense, but you live in Manhattan, and there is no way you can know what is happening in ski towns around the country, especially the west coast.

Really, I should read a book who's author is obviously biased in order to take part in a discussion because I live in NYC? I suppose Marc_C or Tony shouldn't talk either because Marc lives in SLC, and Tony lives in LA?

Where you and I disagree is that I don't think of the Ski-Bum as some sort of "against the man" archetypal hero. I see your complaining about high rent as sour grapes. In NYC we know what it means to have high rent move you from one neighborhood to the next in the name of gentrification. The difference is we don't sit on our thumbs and whine, we move and make the best of our new situations while we strive to make careers to allow us to pick and choose where we would like to live (or we leave). New comers to NYC often live in Bushwick or some other crap neighborhood until they can afford a better one. I just don't see what the big deal is about that a few ski bums have to commute from nearby communities rather than live at the base of a mountain.

This is getting repetitive. soleskier already cited Clifford's book once in this thread. He somehow thinks that because he read it in a book, it must be true. Repeating it multiple times is somehow supposed to make it more true.

Moaning about the demise of ski bums is really funny. I was brought up to believe that I should add some value and benefit to society. By definition, a ski bum is a taker who doesn't give back anything to society. Why would I want to glorify that?

 

[rfarren]

Moaning about the demise of ski bums is really funny. I was brought up to believe that I should add some value and benefit to society. By definition, a ski bum is a taker who doesn't give back anything to society. Why would I want to glorify that?

Bingo! I wrote something along that line earlier but chose not post it. It said that skiing by in its very nature is selfish (there are no friends on a powder day), and ski-bumming turns that selfish practice into an art. Frankly, ski-bumming is done by living off the fat of society and I don't see why we should condone it, let alone glorify it.