Question about Spring Aspects and Corn

[AndreB]

We're flying from Buffalo to SLC this Friday just in time for an epic dump of high pressure and warm temps starting Saturday. ](*,)

Freeze thaw conditions will abound, but us East Coasters aren't afraid of firm snow. That being said, is there an obvious set of resorts that have more North facing terrain than others so we can ski those runs in the afternoon when the South facing aspects are shot? Obviously elevation helps too, but that's data I can easily look up myself.

Also, I've never skied Spring corn. To me, Spring warmth means slush and stickiness, but rumor has it that corn can be almost as enjoyable as powder. Is this the time of year for that sort of thing? Is there some typical locations I can seek out to experience corn snow?

Thanks!

 

[rfarren]

Corn is my second favorite condition behind only powder. It is a question of timing and aspect, but certainly is hero snow.... and it often comes with a t-shirt.

 

[Marc_C]

We're flying from Buffalo to SLC this Friday just in time for an epic dump of high pressure and warm temps starting Saturday. ](*,)

Don't beat your head. Powder at this time of year does not last long - sometimes literally only hours before it turns to slop, glue, or worse. You have to be able to get after it at a moment's notice. You're not doing that by booking a flight 2 weeks in advance.

One late April powder day at the Bird: it had snowed 18" overnight and the next day started overcast with greenhousing, though quickly giving way to partly sunny. The elevation where it turned from powder to unpleasantly sticky slop (not corn) rose 200 vert feet on each successive run. We called it a day a little after 1p, when the crap line had risen to the base of the Gad Chutes.

To produce corn, you need several nights of clear skies with below freezing temps, followed with clear skies, daytime sun, and highs above 40F. When there's a good corn crop and all lifts are still running, actually the last thing I want is a storm, since the 3-5 day cycle would have to start anew. It's more elusive than powder.

Freeze thaw conditions will abound, but us East Coasters aren't afraid of firm snow.

You're not understanding a key point: yes, the groomers will be hard and firm, but the ungroomed will be essentially unskiable. We're not talking about firm snow. We're talking about something that really does resemble trying to ski on a coral reef - that's not a euphemism, it's actually a fairly accurate description.

That being said, is there an obvious set of resorts that have more North facing terrain than others so we can ski those runs in the afternoon when the South facing aspects are shot? Obviously elevation helps too, but that's data I can easily look up myself.

Stop thinking north and south and instead think "follow the sun". West Rustler at Alta is often glorious at 3:30p in April.

Also, I've never skied Spring corn. To me, Spring warmth means slush and stickiness, but rumor has it that corn can be almost as enjoyable as powder. Is this the time of year for that sort of thing? Is there some typical locations I can seek out to experience corn snow?

Yes, as enjoyable as powder, but different. True corn often has a relatively narrow window when it's good. Too early and the surface is still unpleasantly or even dangerously firm - see the coral comment above and think slide for life. One closing day at Alta, patrol kept the High Traverse closed until 1:30pm - they were terrified that someone would slip and kill themselves hitting the trees 600 vert below. Too late and the subsurface is no longer supportable - you sink in and it's like trying to ski deep sand. It can even mire wide boards if it's too soft. Later than that and things are starting to get crunchy as they refreeze from the thermal sink of the snow. Backside at Alta will be fantastic at 10:30 and royally suck in the shade at 3pm.

However, there's a magic 1 - 3 hours for a given aspect where the top 2 inches shave off on each turn and the underlayment easily supports your weight.

 

[Admin]

That being said, is there an obvious set of resorts that have more North facing terrain than others

I'm holding my breath waiting for Crocker to start yapping about how Snowbird has more north-facing than Alta. :roll:

AndreB, Marc_C's advice is spot on. North facing is useless in the hunt for corn, it's all about following the sun at the right time. Keep an eye out for us this weekend and shout out if you want to tag along.

 

[AndreB]

Marc_c - super insightful stuff, thanks for taking the time to write that.

Admin - I live vicariously through your posts, so yah joining you for some runs would rock. Food and drinks will all be on me in exchange for any local knowledge you can share. I'll drop u a PM when we arrive on Friday.

 

[Admin]

Admin - I live vicariously through your posts, so yah joining you for some runs would rock.

<blush> I'll be signing autographs out back after the show...if my swollen head fits through the doorway, that is. 8)

Food and drink will be neither necessary nor accepted.

 

[Bobby Danger]

but he's gonna need a bigger helmet !!!

 

[AndreB]

Food and drink will be neither necessary nor accepted.

Well then rest assured, when you need local insider knowledge on the best way to ski the Western New York Southern Tier and our thigh burning 800' vert, I shall reciprocate in kind.

 

[Admin]

Food and drink will be neither necessary nor accepted.

Well then rest assured, when you need local insider knowledge on the best way to ski the Western New York Southern Tier and our thigh burning 800' vert, I shall reciprocate in kind.

Ha! I've done Holiday Valley and Holimont both.

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[SoCal Rider]

Is corn snow essentially a wild snow thing or can nightly groomed trails also corn up? I think it's extra sweet hitting softened ungroomed at a place like Mt. Baldy CA, but I also do T-shirt riding in Big Bear -- 99 percent morning cord -- but not sure whether it's considered one and the same.

 

[Tony Crocker]

To produce corn, you need several nights of clear skies with below freezing temps, followed with clear skies, daytime sun, and highs above 40F.

This is what is necessary for snow that fell as powder to consolidate. Denser snow in the Sierra tends to consolidate a bit faster. Sometimes wind will do the consolidating.

It's more elusive than powder.

Perhaps in LCC. Due to chronic wind during storms powder is more elusive at Mammoth than corn IMHO.

Is corn snow essentially a wild snow thing or can nightly groomed trails also corn up?

Grooming is another means of consolidation. The catch is that the snow needs to be relatively undisturbed during the transition from hardpack to corn and unfortunately most groomed runs, particularly in a place like Big Bear, have way too much skier traffic during that transition time, resulting in the snow softening into clumps instead of a smooth uniform surface. Some of Mammoth's groomers around chairs 15 and 25 are low enough traffic to get some decent late morning corn. When Mammoth has late season race camps I watch those roped-off runs and hit them as soon as the racers are done. That corn can be almost perfect.

That being said, is there an obvious set of resorts that have more North facing terrain than others so we can ski those runs in the afternoon when the South facing aspects are shot?

There's sort of a misunderstanding here. Steep north facing terrain can retain a packed powder surface when the rest of an area has gone through a melt/freeze and thus have good skiing all day long. During my Iron Blosam week March 10-15 we would ski that terrain in the morning (Silver Fox, Rasta, STH, Upper Cirque is good too when there's more cover than this year) and wait for the sun for other aspects. 4 weeks later it is less likely these locations have retained winter snow in warm weather. If not they will be the last places to soften and should be skied very late in the warmest days.

Follow the sun around can be a trial and error process. It depends on how warm the day is; the optimal hour may be an hour or two earlier on a warmer day than a cooler one. On some of the cooler days direct sun areas like parts of Mineral Basin may soften while west facing areas like West Rustler and the similar aspects from Regulator to Lone Pine at Snowbird remain in coral reef mode all day. You should take admin up on his offer. Someone who is there season after season is more likely to adjust to the day's weather and get the sun timing right on most runs.

That said, it is easier to stay in more pleasant snow on a warm spring day at Snowbird than at Alta. The comparable terrain admin refers to at Alta is more likely require to long traverses for access, which may be bulletproof until well into the afternoon. Alta's traverses can be a virtue when you're seeking a powder stash; in refrozen spring mode they're just tedious. Not sure how long your trip is, but in full-on spring mode I would be skiing at least 2 days at Snowbird for every one at Alta and not bothering with the other Utah places at all. I would change that recommendation if you get new snow.

 

[Admin]

That said, it is easier to stay in more pleasant snow on a warm spring day at Snowbird than at Alta.

:roll: It was just a matter of time until that quote showed up. I vehemently disagree.

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[Evren]

Wow. It sounds like y'all are searching for unicorns, the way you talk about corn and how elusive it is!
I was skiing corn all-week-long last week at Deer Valley. It was on a large number of slopes, after the first hour, for most of the day. It sloughed off like a water-skier's wake, giving the soft-gradual support that one gets from powder. Up close, it was made up of large granules. After finding it everywhere, I did become a little suspicious so I asked a liftie while poking the stuff with my pole. He said, "Yup, it's corn". That was good enough for me.
It is possible that I am skiing something other than true corn. Let's call it "Deer Valley stone-ground maize". It's still very enjoyable to ski. Many people avoid it (there was hardly anyone on the slopes after the first two hours). It's best on a run like Magnet that is left alone this time of year with a SE aspect but plenty of previous night's groomers on all sorts of aspects had it, too.

 

[Marc_C]

Wow. It sounds like y'all are searching for unicorns, the way you talk about corn and how elusive it is!
I was skiing corn all-week-long last week at Deer Valley.

It's elusive in the sense that:
- mid winter in LCC, according to Tony, there's something like a 70% probability that in a given week we'll receive 6" of powder or more at least once*. The probability of good corn in a normal April is not as high because....
- we frequently get enough storms in April that the corn cycle needs to constantly restart
- LCC gets more snow more frequently than DV
- this season is an abnormally low snowfall, non-stormy outlier - you cannot use it for comparison

*: this is paraphrasing from memory - Tony can chime in with the specific statistic

 

[Evren]

Tony can chime in with the specific statistic

You mean the statistic about how what you said applies below the 42nd parallel and above the Tropic of Cancer in a negative Arctic oscillation year?
And you're saying that it's because of all that pesky new snow LCC gets that corn is elusive. Here on the Wasatch-back we're bereft of such annoyances. Yet Tony says, he sez:

not bothering with the other Utah places at all

As the resident Deer Valley cheerleader I resent that...

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I asked a liftie while poking the stuff with my pole. He said, "Yup, it's corn".

:lol:
I'm trying to imagine the look on someone's face if asked a question like that. Similar to "is that a hamburger?"

 

[Tony Crocker]

MarcC's analysis above is exactly correct (6+ inch powder day, etc.). If April is dry there will definitely be more corn than usual in LCC, though the low snowpack will be less likely to soften uniformly and some normally prime areas will get isothermic (the rotten, skiing in sand impression) snowpacks and/or start losing cover.

It sloughed off like a water-skier's wake, giving the soft-gradual support that one gets from powder......
It is possible that I am skiing something other than true corn. Let's call it "Deer Valley stone-ground maize".

That's somewhat different from my impression. The best corn is more like skiing a perfect groomed run, but with even less resistance. If you feel like you have to push the snow out of the way much, that's not good corn IMHO. However, on steep runs like at the top of Mammoth gravity overcomes most of that resistance and the skiing is still quite enjoyable. At the same late soft snow stage on flatter terrain it will feel like it's grabbing your skis and potentially throwing your upper body too far forward.

 

[johnnash]

This discussion makes me feel good to know that not everyone on this forum other than myself is among the corn cognoscenti. For awhile, whenever I went spring skiing, I was looking for something with large granules, like kernels. :lol: (God knows why that would make a pleasant surface!) A while ago, I finally inferred from the various discussions that it wasn't like that, but this then raises the question ''why 'corn'''? Is it related to the agricultural cycle out west -- because corn is planted on warm, sunny days in the spring? In any case, as I read the descriptions of Marc_C and Evren, I am convinced that I finally found the corny grail on my last day at Wolf Creek. It was, as Tony says, on a lightly trafficked ungroomed slope after lunch, when things had warmed up, and then by 4:00, it had started to stiffen up. But for a 3-hour window, it was a lot of fun -- definitely worth seeking out.

 

[Admin]

Actually corn snow is indeed large kernels like corn that form from repeated freeze thaw cycles.

This discussion of groomed vs ungroomed is where I think the confusion is coming from. Yes, the surface of a groomer can become true corn if it's somehow left undisturbed for a few days, but what are the odds of that happening? In more likelihood it will transform itself into something resembling corn as it softens through the day.

True corn, however, requires an undisturbed surface. When formed right the top half to two inches will shave off with each turn and the snow below that will be totally supportable.

The holy grail is untracked corn, much as untracked is for powder. That's typically not possible at lift served areas due to traffic levels, which is why we so often ski Alta from Snowbird after Alta closes for the season in spring. Arcing huge turns down a steep slope through an inch of corn that's as smooth as a pool table is positively divine.

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[Marc_C]

Actually corn snow is indeed large kernels like corn that form from repeated freeze thaw cycles.

http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/cornsnow.htm