Question about Spring Aspects and Corn

[Evren]

Admin: That was instructive about true corn, which, apparently, I have not experienced. Yey, something even better to look forward to!
That liftie earlier was saying something about the snow being down to the man-made stuff put down earlier in the season and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons) and I wonder if that has something to do with this. I mean, he was no genius, this liftie, but maybe there's something in the water, after all?

Similar to "is that a hamburger?"

Look, we're dealing with some very retentive folk on this board here! I need to have all my ducks in order before posting something lest someone somewhere prove me wrong

 

[Marc_C]

...and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons)...

SoC doesn't care about DV or the Wasatch Back.

The most commonly used additive for snowmaking is something called SnowMax. It's actually not a "chemical" (in the incorrect sense that most people use the term - in reality, nearly everything is a chemical) but a protein:

Snowmax was launched in the United States in 1984. The active ingredient of Snomax is a protein contained in the cellular wall of the Pseudomonas Syringae bacterium, which enables the lowering of the freezing point of water - allowing ski resorts to make snow at warmer temperatures.

 

[johnnash]

Well, if corn snow is really like kernels, I guess I didn't find the corny grail at Wolf Creek after all. It certainly didn't appear granular at all. But in terms of how it skied, it matches the description -- velvety, with a bit of top layer peeling off with each turn, and good support underneath.

That liftie earlier was saying something about the snow being down to the man-made stuff put down earlier in the season and how it has a chemical to make it freeze at higher temps (don't tell Save Our Canyons) and I wonder if that has something to do with this. I mean, he was no genius, this liftie, but maybe there's something in the water, after all?

On the chemical, Tony has referred to how they ''salt'' at Mammoth, which puzzled me, since I generally think of salt (and other impurities as well) as lowering the freezing point of snow and ice. But there are many salts, and I guess some may have the opposite effect.

And thanks, Marc_C, for the snow glossary website -- very interesting.

 

[Admin]

On the chemical, Tony has referred to how they ''salt'' at Mammoth, which puzzled me, since I generally think of salt (and other impurities as well) as lowering the freezing point of snow and ice. But there are many salts, and I guess some may have the opposite effect.

Salting is most typically employed on race courses to harden them and prevent rutting, but a few including Mammoth and another one in far northern Scandinavia that operates most of the year use it as well. Actually, it has precisely the effect you'd expect: it gently softens and melts the snow. The snow pack's thermal mass, however, causes it to quickly refreeze, hardening the surface for the desired result.

 

[EMSC]

Well, if corn snow is really like kernels, I guess I didn't find the corny grail at Wolf Creek after all. It certainly didn't appear granular at all. But in terms of how it skied, it matches the description -- velvety, with a bit of top layer peeling off with each turn, and good support underneath.

It's all relative... Think of the size and 'volume' of a single flake of powdery snow. How big is it once it's been skied/crushed/compacted? On a relative basis 'corn' snow is huge kernels of refrozen snow but it's not necessarily anywhere the size of real corn kernels like in popcorn.

 

[Admin]

While we're at it, let's dispel a couple of more myths.

To produce corn, you need several nights of clear skies with below freezing temps, followed with clear skies, daytime sun, and highs above 40F.

This is what is necessary for snow that fell as powder to consolidate. Denser snow in the Sierra tends to consolidate a bit faster. Sometimes wind will do the consolidating.

The formation of corn has absolutely nothing to do with consolidation, it's all about only repeated freeze/thaw cycles. From Marc_C's link which I believe quotes Bruce Tremper:

Wet snow that has gone through repeated melt-freeze cycles is often called Corn Snow. Under Corn Snow or Melt-Freeze conditions, a crust forms on the surface that will support your weight when frozen, but turns to deep slush during the heat of the day.

Note that there's nothing there whatsoever about "consolidation." That word appears nowhere on the entire page linked to by Marc_C. It's the repeated freezing and thawing that creates the granules that constitute corn by allowing tiny amounts of water to form and percolate through the surface of the snow. "Consolidation" doesn't create those granules. Later in the season when it's even warmer still, and freezing doesn't occur, the quantity of water is greater and results in the dreaded sun cups.

Grooming is another means of consolidation.

But not corn formation, as noted above.

On some of the cooler days direct sun areas like parts of Mineral Basin may soften while west facing areas like West Rustler and the similar aspects from Regulator to Lone Pine at Snowbird remain in coral reef mode all day.

But unfortunately for that analysis, and we seem to go through this every spring on these forums, contrary to popular belief very little of Mineral Basin actually faces south. About the only south-facing terrain back there is Livin' the Dream, the lower Chamonix Chutes and the very top of Baldy Express. Most of MB faces east and southeast, which is no different than skiing Yellow Trail and Backside at Alta. Note the topo contours in Mineral Basin and the fact that the Peruvian Ridge and the ridge connecting Hidden Peak to the Twins actually runs south-southwest to north-northeast, not west to east:

At this time of year the sun is ridiculously intense, especially in the afternoon. Mrs. Admin went out onto our deck yesterday for 30 minutes and got a sunburn. And that's at 5,000 feet, where the sun is much less intense than at 10,000 feet. On those rare days at this time of year when it's cold and cloudy enough to prevent direct west-facing lines like West Rustler, Regulator and Gad Chutes (not that the latter are skiable any more this year anyway) from softening in the strong afternoon sun, the relatively weaker morning sun is not going to be enough to soften east or southeast-facing lines in Mineral Basin, either.

 

[Bobby Danger]

unless those lines are at a lower elevation , ski patrol gully has been ready in the past before even cham one was even close . elevation with the senario admin has put forth would be huge . going to a ski area with lower base elevation would help dramatically , so in hence tony saying park city ,deer valley , snowbasin all the lower based ski areas would be bad i'd half to debate that one ! last weekend at snowbasin it didn't snow but two or three inches but there were no underlying tracks to deal with , you know when i say smoooooooth i mean smoooooooooooooth and the tempurature of the snow was warmer than up canyon so it was just barely frozen , and actually out on wildcat ridge i scored a true corn run the last thousand vertical coming down under the chair that was perfect !!! all due to being at a ski area with lower base ele. . timing on about the fifth morning of a strong corn cycle would probably result in the most consolidated conditions at cycle time to softing corn . after that much time cooking day after day water drains down through the snow pack to a good depth so , it takes a bit longer to become mush . my self i prefer about one quarter to one half inch on windshield smooooooooth surface and that senario plays out every year at alta once it closes alta becomes a different place !!

 

[rfarren]

Oddly enough the best corn I ever had was at snowbasin in late February. It was at the bottom far skiers right, late afternoon. It looked like untracked powder, and it probably was earlier that week, except that it had a sheen on the top. It wasn't very steep but still very nice. That time I got lucky, but I think I understand aspect and timing better now. That being said I think being a local is far more important to hit the corn right compared to getting untracked powder.

 

[SkiandflyUtah]

Porn, porn, porn...that's all you guys ever talk about...Oh Corn...well, er ah never mind.

Signed,

Emily Litella

 

[AndreB]

Wow, so much good informative discussion here. Glad I asked. I used to be the kid who was too afraid to raise his hand in class for fear of asking a stupid question. At 32 years old I think I've finally broken that character trait. Go me.

We just pulled into our (rented) condo in PC and we're here through at least Wednesday, possibly Friday if we feel like getting more skiing in. Nice to see that the Wasatch front got some new snow.

 

[Marc_C]

Nice to see that the Wasatch front got some new snow.

Alta is reporting 10" so far, but it looks like things are winding down. I do not know the density of the new stuff, but looking at the temps and water, it would suggest being reasonably light.

 

[Admin]

We just pulled into our (rented) condo in PC and we're here through at least Wednesday, possibly Friday if we feel like getting more skiing in. Nice to see that the Wasatch front got some new snow.

Welcome to Oooootah. I was at Solitude today, and I'm about to start working on my post from the day with a whole bunch o'photos. Here's the Reader's Digest version:

1) Up to about 8" of new I'd guess, give or take. Much more in places like Summit than in others like Honeycomb. Not nearly dense enough.
2) The worst road conditions I've ever experienced here while driving up this morning, bar none.

Porn, porn, porn...that's all you guys ever talk about...Oh Corn...well, er ah never mind.

Signed,

Emily Litella

 

[Tony Crocker]

Oddly enough the best corn I ever had was at snowbasin in late February

I've seen that too. There's a lot of terrain over there on Strawberry that doesn't get much skier traffic. But if the corn is good in February I think the odds are likely against it in April, probably not enough overnight freezing most of the time.

Note that there's nothing there whatsoever about "consolidation." That word appears nowhere on the entire page linked to by Marc_C. It's the repeated freezing and thawing that creates the granules that constitute corn

Semantics. Corn is generally agreed to be an optimally softened surface of a couple of inches over a supportable base. A typical LCC dump of 18 inches or so is going to take several days of melt/freeze to settle into that supportable base. I choose to call that consolidation. And if the snow has been hammered/compacted by wind as is common at Mammoth, Bachelor or Las Lenas you might get that corn in just a couple of days of melt/freeze.

Yes, the surface of a groomer can become true corn if it's somehow left undisturbed for a few days

No, it only has to be undisturbed during the hours it's softening, as evidenced by those roped off race courses.

 

[Marc_C]

Oddly enough the best corn I ever had was at snowbasin in late February

I've seen that too. There's a lot of terrain over there on Strawberry that doesn't get much skier traffic. But if the corn is good in February I think the odds are likely against it in April, probably not enough overnight freezing most of the time.

Note that there's nothing there whatsoever about "consolidation." That word appears nowhere on the entire page linked to by Marc_C. It's the repeated freezing and thawing that creates the granules that constitute corn

Semantics. Corn is generally agreed to be an optimally softened surface of a couple of inches over a supportable base. A typical LCC dump of 18 inches or so is going to take several days of melt/freeze to settle into that supportable base. I choose to call that consolidation. And if the snow has been hammered/compacted by wind as is common at Mammoth, Bachelor or Las Lenas you might get that corn in just a couple of days of melt/freeze.

Yes, the surface of a groomer can become true corn if it's somehow left undisturbed for a few days

No, it only has to be undisturbed during the hours it's softening, as evidenced by those roped off race courses.

It's not semantics. There is so much incorrect assumption in the above that it belies a basic misunderstanding of corn and its formation.

First off is not realizing that we can have spring-like days in almost any month of the winter season. During the massive inversion of 2002-03, we had great corn for 22 consecutive days in January. We went back to feet of powder in February and back to great corn again in April.

Secondly, corn is strictly the shape and size of the snow - it has absolutely nothing to do with the softened surface and supportable base. Even when it turns to bottomless sand after too much sun, it's still corn.

More later.

 

[Marc_C]

Wow. It sounds like y'all are searching for unicorns, the way you talk about corn and how elusive it is!
I was skiing corn all-week-long last week at Deer Valley.

It's elusive in the sense that:
- mid winter in LCC, according to Tony, there's something like a 70% probability that in a given week we'll receive 6" of powder or more at least once*. The probability of good corn in a normal April is not as high because....
- we frequently get enough storms in April that the corn cycle needs to constantly restart
- LCC gets more snow more frequently than DV

From Saturday, 4/7 avi bulletin:

The little storm on Friday exceeded expectations in some areas. Totals were 11 inches at Alta, 7 at Brighton, 10 at Spruces Campground, 2 to 8 along the Park City Ridgeline and the poor folks over at Deer Valley got skunked with zero new snow.

 

[Evren]

the poor folks over at Deer Valley got skunked with zero new snow.

Correction, "the recent spate of corn and more corn continues unabated over at Deer Valley".

 

[Marc_C]

the poor folks over at Deer Valley got skunked with zero new snow.

Correction to the correction: the Utah Avalanche Center, not me, wrote "the poor folks over at Deer Valley got skunked with zero new snow."

Correction, "the recent spate of corn and more corn continues unabated over at Deer Valley".

Really? In Ontario Bowl? Lady Morgan Bowl? Mayflower Bowl?
Let's see.... Ontario has lousy coverage, Lady Morgan is cooked into excellent sludge and slop from it's aspect, and DV closed Mayflower a week ago. Oh. Right. You must mean on the groomers. :stir:

PS: Main Chute at Alta was open today. And it was powder. A foot of it.

 

[Evren]

Oh, I give up. Look, I never claimed DV has better snow than Alta. Heck, I got an Alta gold pass for that very same reason. Can't we all just be friends? Please?

 

[Marc_C]

Can't we all just be friends? Please?

Slagging and barroom banter is part of the deal when you get an FTO forum account!

 

[Tony Crocker]

Heck, I got an Alta gold pass for that very same reason.

Yes, and late season is when you should be using it a lot. Spring is very slushy on the Wasatch back areas by my experience.