Round 1 to Joe Bastardi & Company

So, you cherry pick one data set, the UAH, against the RSS amongst others that show data that is not congruous with the UAH. Furthermore, the UAH has been published and interpreted by Dr. Roy Spencer who is a known AGW skeptic, which in itself is not bad, but he has a history of not thinking scientifically or critically: i.e. his belief in Intelligent Design. He was quoted as saying

"I finally became convinced that the theory of creation actually had a much better scientific basis than the theory of evolution, for the creation model was actually better able to explain the physical and biological complexity in the world"

:shock: Ummm... That is not science. Science is based on evidence, and then interpreting it. I infer from this that he is not thinking critically, and from that I think it's fair to question his thoughts on AGW and his interpretation of satellite data. Perhaps he wants the earth not to be warming, hence, he is squeezing the numbers to do so, the same way that fossils aren't evidence of previous life forms and they're connectivity to current life, but perhaps they're evidence of dragons and god's miracles! And why would god create an earth for his loving humans if they could warm it themselves?

If his studies on climate change are seen through "Platonic" view of science vs. "Aristotelean" then that should be enough to discredit him.
 
rfarren":12vj85nk said:
This would be most obvious to low elevation areas
Which I have consistently mentioned. Of the 100+ areas I track this effect has been demonstrated over the warming period from the 1970's to the 2000's at exactly one, the Whistler base. Colorado is probably the last major ski region of the world that would be impacted by a rising rain/snow line.

I am somewhat puzzled not to see decreases in the Northeast. I think issue of rain vs. snow in the East is occurring mainly in the shoulder months of November and April, where my data is sketchier in the East vs. other regions. Avg. NE temps December through mid-March are probably still low enough that the rain/snow balance is not yet affected. I'm inclined to believe Patrick/Anthony etc. about early season being consistently slower to get going in their region now vs. the 1970's. I wonder if that's true vs. the 1930's, where I've seen the same North America data as SnowbirdDevotee.

Lots of people "squeeze the numbers" on both sides of the climate change debate. That's one reason to at least analyze Muller's study because it shows some indication of a more open mind. Muller's opinion is that greenhouse gases are likely the major component of warming since 1950. He still thinks the projection models (from which most of these alarmist predictions about 39 inch sea level rises, dying ski areas etc. are based) are crap.

Arctic vs. Antarctic sea ice: Nearly all Antarctic sea ice melts in the summer. Ice extent in the Antarctic (both winter and summer) is an indication of that particular year's climate. So its stability or slight increase does raise questions why most of the Antarctic is not warming under a "global warming" scenario, though increased snowfall is a partial explanation. Winter Arctic ice is also a function of the particular winter: it was well above the 1979 and later average during the cold northern winter of 2008. Summer Arctic ice has a permanent component, and its erosion (or restoration) is cumulative (easier to melt seasonal ice than permanent ice). So even if Bastardi's cooling prediction comes true, summer ice won't go back to the 1970's level abruptly. Meanwhile there is a positive feedback warming effect from more ocean water absorbing solar radiation vs. less sea ice mostly reflecting it.
 
Tony, you asked about Arctic ice above. Here is a very interesting picture.
open up this PDF, it's a flyer for a GeoSciences conference.
http://www.cseg.ca/publications/recorde ... w-nuna.pdf
scroll down to page 3 to the "innocuous" picture if the geologist standing in front of the 3,000 year old tree stumps.
What does that tell us?
We have fair records at least of "civilization" for 2,000 years or so. 10,000 yrs ago there was an ice age where ice covered Manhattan so many hundreds of feet thick.
Something caused that ice to recede, Wiki Ice Age doesn't really know what. After the ice receded, I have to assume it was at least that thick over Alaska, those trees grew. Then ice came along again somewhere about 3,000 yrs ago. Now it is receding again and has exposed them, probably very slowly over the past couple hundreds of years. The glaciers have been receding for at least two centuries.

It didn't just start with AGW in 1975(when we thought another ice age was coming). If this glacier leaving, then growing, then receding again was caused by CO2 fluctuations, certainly it had nothing to do with man. Since 1975 the world has very likely warmed by .4C-8C. Possibly the US hasn't warmed at all according to Hansen's 1999 NASA article linked above and then spliced with NCDC since.

So this is the wacky world we live in. Us skeptics are called Climate Change Deniers. Because we deny the climate change, if there actually has been any, the past 35 years is caused by 1 part in 20,000 parts of the air changing from something to CO2. It is almost beyond belief how irrational our entire scientific community has become.

Then there are all kinds of more scientific issues. CO2 saturation regarding it's ability to create a greenhouse effect at the current level of 3.95 parts per 10,000. The missing hot spot?? All kinds of stuff that can be truly argued only by experts. Also, if the oceans have warmed a degree or two, likely, then it's likely that they in themselves have released CO2 because CO2 is less soluble the warmer the solution it is dissolved in. It's super complicated and simply no one has the answers. Possibly the experts know next to nothing about climate change.

Except that many think they have the answers, and they have created an enormous industry out of this. So whatever forces caused that Alaskan glacier to recede, grow very large tree in it's place, then recede again, that was all "natural variability", except of course for the past 35 years. THEY DEFINITELY know that was all because of "bad man".

And time only began in 1880, when almost all temperature records began, that was the RIGHT temperature.
 
That Wiki article may very well be true.
The words used are
"suspected"
"favors"

But the Wiki Ice Age page certainly lists a number of possible causes
"The causes of ice ages are not fully understood for both the large-scale ice age periods and the smaller ebb and flow of glacial–interglacial periods within an ice age. The consensus is that several factors are important: atmospheric composition, such as the concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane (the specific levels of the previously mentioned gases are now able to be seen with the new ice core samples from EPICA Dome C in Antarctica over the past 800,000 years[39] ); changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun known as Milankovitch cycles (and possibly the Sun's orbit around the galaxy); the motion of tectonic plates resulting in changes in the relative location and amount of continental and oceanic crust on the Earth's surface, which affect wind and ocean currents; variations in solar output; the orbital dynamics of the Earth-Moon system; and the impact of relatively large meteorites, and volcanism including eruptions of supervolcanoes."

Your problem is you are considering "theories" as facts. Word of advice - stay out of the stock market. Because you will find that a theory you have, that is working and seems so true and explains everything, suddenly turns to complete MUSH!
 
To show you how crazy this whole thing is, once you care to look into instead of blndly accepting what they tell you on network news.
Muller (BEST) from Berkeley found no contribution from the sun regarding temperature change this past century.
http://berkeleyearth.org/pdf/berkeley-e ... uly-29.pdf
Then we have what is the soon to be released IPCC-5 which a member of the team leaked on WUWT.
It's technical, but the guy who leaked it is apparently a climate scientist, and what he says is:
"Lead story from the Second Order Draft: strong evidence for solar forcing beyond TSI now acknowledged by IPCC"
This has something to do with neutrons which the sun creates and travel to Earth affecting cloud formation.
Apparently, clouds have decreased by 1%
One of the WUWT commenters linked to this study below showing clouds have decreased by 1.56% the past 39 years. Less Clouds = Hotter Earth
THERE ARE SO MANY VARIABLES to attribute all climate change/global warming to CO2 is simply INSANE!!!!
But CO2 is certainly a convenient and quick simply way to fool and fleece lot's and lot's of people.

WUWT Comment: The declining cloud cover reported Eastman & Warren 2012 is an equally major “omitted variable”.
My proposed summary of Eastman & Warren is as follows:
“The global average cloud cover declined about 1.56% over 39 years (1979 to 2009) or ~0.4%/decade, primarily in middle latitudes at middle and high levels (Eastman & Waren, 2012). Declining clouds appear to be a major contributor to the observed global warming. A 1 percentage point decrease in albedo (30% to 29%) would increase the black-body radiative equilibrium temperature about 1°C, about equal to a doubling of atmospheric CO2. e.g. by a 1.5% reduction in clouds since they form up to 2/3rds of global albedo (IPCC report AR4 1.5.2 p.114). The challenge now is distinguish what portion of rising CO2 reduced clouds and what portion of natural reduction in clouds raised ocean temperatures increasing CO2.”
 
During the last 2.8 million years ice ages have happened on average every 16 thousand years. There isn't much speculation as to when and why glaciation starts. It has to do orbital changes.

The argument of theory vs. facts is not a real argument either. You're facts are interpretations of data. That data can be interpreted very differently. Secondly, don't use the word theory incorrectly... Electro-magnetism is a theory, and yet it is used in practice every day by almost every person on the earth.

Finally, I've made all of the arguments you're making before... if you don't believe me just look on this forum and search a couple years back. The problem is that facts are indeed problematic things, and much of the arguments and predictions made by people like Bastardi, and blogs like WUWT (and the scientists they chose to quote) keep failing to come to fruition, or are disproved in peer reviewed literature. All the while, the climate has stayed warmer than our 30 year average, in fact if you're 27 years old you've never experienced a month with lower than average temp globally!!!

Some of the arguments made by AGW proponents are porous too (particularly the dire predictions and feedbacks, which are notoriously difficult to predict), but overall this appears to be more simple than you're trying to make it. The earth is warming, human activity is a contributing factor if not the major reason behind it. The science behind AGW is pretty sound.
 
My thinking is not a lot different from rfarren's.

I've read the theory that solar activity increases cosmic rays, which decrease cloud cover, thus a warming effect more than the small difference in solar radiation alone. In 2008 and 2009 we were reading lots about how quiet the sun was and how the unusually long sunspot cycle (12.8 years vs. average 11 years) would portend cooling, especially if the next maximum was low (it was 40 per day in the early 1800's following the last unusually long cycle). During the warming period sunspot maxima were 164 in 1979, 158 in 1989 and 120 in 2000. The current maximum is around 65.

The PDO was in its positive (warm phase) in the 1980's and 1990 and has moved into its cool phase. Thus the Bastardi prediction of cooling over the next 20 years.

I think the reasonable conclusion from this is that both sides of the AGW debate are wrong. The ongoing flat temperatures for a decade+ are inconvenient facts for either set of absolutists. The AGW effect is not likely to be negligible or else we would have near term declining temps from the above effects. But the AGW computer models have such huge feedback effects in their assumptions that they predicted rapid rise in temps during the 2000's which has not occurred. The likely explanation is that the AGW effect is real but modest, enough to offset other negative effects but not to overpower them and continue the increases of the 80's and 90's in the short/intermediate term.

There is little question that current temperatures are higher than in the 1970's. But the effect upon snowfall, length of ski seasons and skier visitation has been negligible over that period of time. The drought years 1977 and 1981 were more severe than 2012 and 2011 is the top season for both snowfall and visitation.
 
>Secondly, don't use the word theory incorrectly...

When I use the word theory I am mostly using it to describe predictions regarding the future. But, I'm also using the word theory to describe explanations of very complex systems, like our weather and climate.

>much of the arguments and predictions made by people like Bastardi, and blogs like WUWT (and the scientists they chose to quote) keep failing to come to fruition

I could care less about anyone's future predictions. like how would anyone KNOW that global cooling is going to occur very soon? The climate is overwhelmingly too complex to make predictions about what is going to happen in a few years from now. A good bet is to always follow the trend.

>or are disproved in peer reviewed literature.

using the term peer reviewed literature to stand behind is nonsense. peer reviewed simply means other people who are all in agreement, it doesn't necessarily make them right.

>All the while, the climate has stayed warmer than our 30 year average,

True. The past 12 years have undoubtedly been warmer than anytime since the MediEvil warming in about 1500. But that is a ridiculous argument. Supposedly, according to AGW CO2 is now the main driver of our climate, yet mans CO3 output has risen 30% since 2000,
http://www.pbl.nl/en/publications/2012/ ... 012-report
and yet there has been no global warming.
Some would say, natural variability has had cooling effects the past decade, like more La Nina. Good God! Maybe it was in increase in El Nino during the prior 25 yrs of warming that caused the 1975-1998 warming. Actually satellites don't even show a warming from 1979-1997.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/fr ... 70/to:1997
Ok, throw all that data out with a wave of your hand. Christy and Spencer, both skeptics are the keeper of that data.
What is a fact, is that in 1998, we had a super El Nino, the largest of the past century, and global temp.'s jumped up .4C, or so and have remained there.

> in fact if you're 27 years old you've never experienced a month with lower than average temp globally!!!
This is the most important statement you have made and proves your complete ignorance of historical climate. Anyone reading this thread, do yourself a big factor and get Brian Fagan's book The Little Ice Age, it'll cost you less than $8 delivered.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-Ice-Ag ... le+ice+age
Read the chapter - The War Against The Glaciers.
Read how the town of Chamonix was almost wiped out by rapidly advancing glaciers. How the Franz Josep glacier in NZ advanced so many miles during the Little Ice to it's maximum in 1880 (like other glaciers). Then retreated then advanced again. In Chamonix he writes the glaciers were advancing a musket shot per day. Before you ask yourself if that period of climate during the LIA was "normal", ask yourself what caused it? What factors led to these glaciers steadily advancing for a period of a few hundred years. That's a historical FACT. Was it a carbon tax? Maybe the use of Dutch windmills? Consider that whatever forces were at work during that period, maybe similar forces were at work during the period from 1975 to 1998, except working in an opposite direction. Maybe the forces causing the recent warming are the same as the ones that caused the MediEvil warming or the Roman warming.

The FACT is when you look at the climate on long scale during the past millenium, you find the Roman Warming, then the Dark Ages, then the Medievil Warming, then LIA, then the most recent modern warming. You find nothing but Climate Change, for which there is irrefutable historical evidence. All of it, except for a period of 25 yrs from 1975-1998 is blamed on CO2!

> The earth is warming, human activity is a contributing factor if not the major reason behind it.
Keep saying your "rosary" again, again and again.

It is possible, that man has some contributing factor to warming, personally I doubt that the 3% of total CO2 that emitted, (according to IPCC theory) has anything to do with it. If you look at the IPCC chapter on the carbon cycle, and man 3% contribution, that's all complete theory also.
 
SnowbirdDevotee":12rbiu5g said:
> The earth is warming, human activity is a contributing factor if not the major reason behind it.
Keep saying your "rosary" again, again and again.

It is possible, that man has some contributing factor to warming, personally I doubt that the 3% of total CO2 that emitted, (according to IPCC theory) has anything to do with it. If you look at the IPCC chapter on the carbon cycle, and man 3% contribution, that's all complete theory also.

Oh the Irony! :rotfl: as it would appear from one of rfarren's previous posts on this matter that he is in all likelihood an Anti-Theist:

Ummm... That is not science. Science is based on evidence, and then interpreting it. I infer from this that he is not thinking critically, and from that I think it's fair to question his thoughts on AGW and his interpretation of satellite data. Perhaps he wants the earth not to be warming, hence, he is squeezing the numbers to do so, the same way that fossils aren't evidence of previous life forms and they're connectivity to current life, but perhaps they're evidence of dragons and god's miracles! And why would god create an earth for his loving humans if they could warm it themselves?

But Seriously - this is an Excellent Debate. I have popped in on this thread occasionally of late and just read from somewhere on Thursday Dec 13th onward. Kudos to all contributors (admin, crocker, rfarren, and snowbirddevotee) for their well-scribed bits both large and small.
 
SnowbirdDevotee":27af0n22 said:
using the term peer reviewed literature to stand behind is nonsense. peer reviewed simply means other people who are all in agreement, it doesn't necessarily make them right.

:shock: No, it doesn't make them right, but it means a given study or experiment have been read thought about and reviewed by peers(i.e. scientists). It adds substantial weight to a study. When peer reviewed studies disprove another study, it lends weight to the argument. Secondly, peer review does not mean all the readers are in agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

SnowbirdDevotee":27af0n22 said:
Maybe the forces causing the recent warming are the same as the ones that caused the MediEvil warming or the Roman warming.

The FACT is when you look at the climate on long scale during the past millenium, you find the Roman Warming, then the Dark Ages, then the Medievil Warming, then LIA, then the most recent modern warming. You find nothing but Climate Change, for which there is irrefutable historical evidence. All of it, except for a period of 25 yrs from 1975-1998 is blamed on CO2!

If that be the case, the rate of warming should be comparable to those other events. It is not. The rate of warming over the last 50 years is anomalously high.

SnowbirdDevotee":27af0n22 said:
> Actually satellites don't even show a warming from 1979-1997.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/fr ... 70/to:1997
Ok, throw all that data out with a wave of your hand. Christy and Spencer, both skeptics are the keeper of that data.

Both of those points are patently incorrect. Look at the graph, even with the small dip in the early 80s on both the RSS and UAH the trend line leads up, furthermore there are only 2 record sets listed there. The UAH had shown marked problems all the way up 2001 when they re-calibrated how they read the data, given orbital issues with the Satellite, it then came in line with others like the RSS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_ ... ure_record

Christy and Spencer are not the keepers of the data, they interpret the data, along with a few other groups. Mr. Spencer I've talked about, as for Mr. Christy he is quoted as saying:

"it is scientifically inconceivable that after changing forests into cities, turning millions of acres into irrigated farmland, putting massive quantities of soot and dust into the air, and putting extra greenhouse gases into the air, that the natural course of climate has not changed in some way."

"We just said that human effects have a warming influence, and that's certainly true. There was nothing about disaster or catastrophe."

Which is basically what I've been saying all along.
 
The world has not warmed for at least the past decade, even though man's CO2 emissions have grown 30% since the year 2000, and that's almost 30% of all the emissions we ever created. One this I can absolutely assure anyone of is that there is going to be nothing whatsoever done in any event to slow the growth of man's CO2 production. It isn't going to happen for a long, long time until the poor countries catch up, and that is a very long way off.

Just yesterday the new IPCC ( the UN group of the "worlds best climate scientists") draft was leaked. That draft contains an interesting chart graphing the measured temperatures (cough cough, adjusted and tortured!, always up, but that's neither here not there) against the prior model predictions.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress. ... ls_obs.png
article found here.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/14/t ... us-a-poll/

Their chart confirms there has been no warming for 10 years, and temperatures this year are the same they were in 1997. (2012 doesn't appear on that graph, but they will likely turn out about the same as 2011).

The oceans control the air temperature. Almost all the heat in our planet is stored in the oceans. The atmosphere temperature is hardly a factor in the overall temperature of this planet. The currents of the oceans move in periodic oscillations which move colder and warmer around. When that cold water comes to the surface it brings the air temperature down, when it comes up it bring the air temperature up. The most important of these ocean cylces is the El Nino/La Nina affect in the Pacific ocean, because this is such an enormous and deep body of water. It's oscillations affect temperature IN A VERY DRAMATIC and MEASURABLE FASHION. All the climate scientists on both side accept that fact. It is very evident in the temperature records.

Go here and scroll down to Anomalies for Global Air Temperatures and Sea Surface Temperatures. The Red/Blue graph.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/enso/mei/
You can see how they are basically in step.
Then look at one of the temperature data sets graphs since 1900, HADCrut. (they are not skeptics, but alarmists, that was where the Climate Gate emails were leaked from)
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcru ... 00/mean:12
Almost all those sharp ups or downs are caused by El Nino's or La Nina's - however, volcanoes also drastically but temporarily(for a few years) affect the global temperature by making it dramatically cooler for a few years. This happened in the early 1990's. (twice I am pretty sure)

Then so you can see a trendline, look at NASA's graph of the El Nino index (ENSO they call it). In 1975 "scientists" warned us of the coming Ice Age and blamed all kind of weather events on the global cooling.

Here is a video by a famous climate scientist, Stephen Schneider on a PBS program talking about the situation in 1975.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWSQPo_a2w
He wrote papers at that time warning the world of global cooling, but he was just "practicing" his fear-mongering. He quickly switched to a warmer position when the climate dramatically switch to a warming mode in the mid 1970's. Right at the peak of the dire predictions.

The NY Times, whose article regarding future decrease in snowfall affecting our sport, is the paper of "record" for many.
Luckily we have then educate and guide us for 150 years regarding the state of the climate and our future weather.
http://newsbusters.org/node/11640
Of course, they always have "experts" to rely on, and although the experts have turned out to be wrong in the past, many think they finally go IT RIGHT!

But back to the NOAA chart. What you will see is that from 1950 through 1975 the cold La Nina dominated. World temperatures were varied but generally stable during that time period. But there were many bad winters which were likely caused by La Nina. In about 1977 the ocean cycles switched, for reasons unknown to anyone, to more frequent El Nino's. That cycle dominated from 1977 to 1998. Also, during that time there were two super El Nino's, in 1998 and and about 1983. As always they caused the world to dramatically warm for a short period of time, a year or so. These two super El Nino's gave our climate crooks great opportunity to point out the temporarily increased global temperatures and focus the attention of the world on man's possible, which they posed as certain definitive consensus scientific knowledge, affect on climate.

Associated with the El Nino is the Pacific Decadel Oscillation which also abruptly shifted from a negative phase to a positive phase in about 1975. The PDO particularly affects the climate in the NW US along the coast to Alaska. This change in ocean climate abruptly and dramatically increased the temp in Alaska.
That effect is clearly shown in the Alaska temp records.
http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/ClimTrends ... hange.html
Of course, that dramatic Alaskan warming was widely publicized on TV shows (science shows! ha ha) and news articles, with many scientists attributing it to mans influence on climate. But a funny thing has happened. Since the ocean works in mysterious but cyclic patterns, the PDO is now shifting to a negative phase (which means the currents are flowing a different way) and the past 5 years Alaskan temp has gradually decreased, however the recent PDO switch to a negative is not nearly as dramatic as the positive switch was about 1975. Alaskan is having a VERY VERY VERY cold early winter, but I have yet to see one news article pointing that out.

But back to ENSO (Nino (a's). The climate apparently warmed from 1977 to 1998, and that is mostly attributed to mans influence. I guess, w/o bad man, temperatures would be nice and steady overall. But all scientists accept the fact that a preponderance of El Nino's will caused increased warming. One of the reasons the climate has not warmed the past 15 years is because the El Nino's have been regular but weak. Now the alarmist climate scientists know all this, and they do all kinds of mumbo jumbo to make excuses and try to take out the Nino's affect on climate.

But, the bottom line, it is the heat or cold in the ocean that is tossed around the world which control our climate in the short, decadel time span. It all worked in cycles, enormous cycles like the severe ice age we had 20,000 years ago and before, and the smaller cooling events which caused the glaciers to grow from 1500 to 1850. Of course, the climate scientists never mention that although the glaciers have receded in general the past century, they were not always there, and in recent history they were actually growing. Unknown forces caused them to grow and reach their maximum in the 1850, and long before mans influence on climate became any possiblity, they began to recede a few decades before 1900.

It's all been a big waste of money, like paying a broker or mutual fund to manage your money when instead you could buy an index fund and find yourself 3% ahead per year. (not that I take that advice!)
 
To prove to you how accurate the computer models of the game boys are:
search for 2008 State of the Climate report PDF

Go to page 24 in your browser.
In the middle column, the genius's write: "The simulations rule out zero trends for 15 years or more".
We are at about 15 years with no increase in global temperatures. (sshh it's a secret, the media doesn't know that, instead we get daily scare reports)
Page back to 23, the heading, "Do Global Temperature Trends over the past decade falsify climate predictions"
They are admitting no temp rise from 1998 through 2007, and since that time temp's have not gone up nor down. We are at or quickly approaching the 15 yrs where they admitting they don't know what the hell they are doing!
Yet, our entire educational system and science in general has been "polluted" with their nonsense, diverting precious resources our society need to growth in prosperity.
Instead, in an act of madness, they think the answer for their STUPIDITY and GREED is to make us all poorer and junk up our environment with wind turbines and turn our children into brains full of MUSH!
And instead of the news media looking into this, we get junk science reports, all the time, never ending, like the 60 minutes show going to Antarctica scaring us about sea ice (which has slowly grown in extent) and how the penguins are suffering, blah blah blah. It's a Mad, Mad World we find ourselves in.
 
I'm done debating this point with you, as clearly you want to ignore what I say, and or not take it on directly. So let me clarify what I've said:
1. Humans have an impact on the climate and environment, CO2 and other human related gases (methane among others) are somewhat responsible for the anomalously high rate of warming in the last 50 years. (humans have always impacted their immediate environment, it isn't particularly a tough stretch to say that 8 billion people can change a climate, given what algea has been able to do to the climate as well.)
2. I don't think predictive models, especially the most dire are valid.
3. Oceans do store much of the heat on this planet, unfortunately, artic ice trends mean that there are and will be more ocean to capture heat.
4. The most reliable proxies for climate readings are glaciation, artic ice, and sea salinity. Those are all in confirmation with a warming climate.
5. If we entered the cold phase of the PDO as Bastardi has said in the past 5 years, we should see cooling, not stabilization. Furthermore, we may have plateaued a bit on temps over the past 10 years, but mind you that they are the warmest 10 years on record, and there is no evidence showing that it won't continue to warm further on, nor is there evidence that it will cool.
6. Only reading one side of any debate means you're uninformed. Unlike you I have read the literature on your side, and once would have wholeheartedly agreed with you, however, the overwhelming amount of research, and evidence tends to disprove the pillars of those arguments.
 
rfarren":1mmi9w70 said:
3. Oceans do store much of the heat on this planet, unfortunately, arctic ice trends mean that there are and will be more ocean to capture heat.
This is the most worrisome trend IMHO. The temperature plateau has been going on for 14 years yet the momentum from the 80's and 90's warming is continuing to set arctic ice melt records. One would expect the arctic ice melt to stabilize at some point if temperatures stay flat.
 
Tony Crocker":m65g0yh0 said:
3. Oceans do store much of the heat on this planet, unfortunately, arctic ice trends mean that there are and will be more ocean to capture heat.
This is the most worrisome trend IMHO. The temperature plateau has been going on for 14 years yet the momentum from the 80's and 90's warming is continuing to set arctic ice melt records. One would expect the arctic ice melt to stabilize at some point if temperatures stay flat.
For dog's sake Tony, learn how to use the quote function already!!!! That handy-dandy quote button has the magic to include the poster's name that you're quoting!!!!! Or simply put the name of the person being quoted in dbl quote marks preceded by an equal sign in the quote opening tag. It's a PITA to figure out who you're quoting, especially when you put multiple quotes in the same post!!!!
 
Tony Crocker":1v0pue8y said:
3. Oceans do store much of the heat on this planet, unfortunately, arctic ice trends mean that there are and will be more ocean to capture heat.
This is the most worrisome trend IMHO. The temperature plateau has been going on for 14 years yet the momentum from the 80's and 90's warming is continuing to set arctic ice melt records. One would expect the arctic ice melt to stabilize at some point if temperatures stay flat.

Tony, arctic sea ice is so much more complex than air temperature. Before get to that, look at the "experts" and their call on Antarctica. The best place to start is the 2007 IPCC report and I assume you know who the IPCC is and what they represent. Go right to the horses mouth, their 2007 report.
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_dat ... 4s4-5.html
scroll down to Section 4.5 or search for for their words
" These new estimates are about 40% higher than those given in IPCC (2001) "

then read above those words - It's a little confusing because they say excluding Greenland/Antarctica then including ....
but my point is they admit they were off by 40%in mass!! since the 2001 IPCC report. So we have the world thinking the ice caps are melting(and the Arctic has in the summer and less so in the winter), but the worlds best experts appear to have revised their former estimates by almost 40% of how much ice there actually ice is!!! Yet we are frightened of rising sea levels and Bloomberg is calling for us to "fix" the problem to protect his city. Of course that ice cap mass is different from sea ice which melts each summer.
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/featur ... c-ice.html
yet... my young 12 year old nephew says to me, "how come the ice capS are melting" of course that is the drivel he is FED in his science books. And the drivel we are fed on TV, like 60 minutes, penguin problems etc etc etc blah blah blah.

This article
http://www.masterresource.org/2010/03/y ... -increase/
covers in-depth the chicanery and "trickery" by the worlds foremost experts regarding their predictions and assessment of antarctica

The sea ice anomaly maps show a small but steady increase in Antarctica ice.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere ... .south.jpg
w/o a trend line, my eye sees the anomalies being much greater since 2000 than before.

and.
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -high.html

and especially this. this is super interesting. this is from a greenie alarmist web site.
http://www.climatecentral.org/news/ipcc ... -now-15340
From this Blog: Projection: In 1995, IPCC projected "little change in the extent of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets… over the next 50-100 years." In 2007 IPCC embraced a drastic revision: "New data… show that losses from the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica have very likely contributed to sea level rise over 1993 to 2003."

Could someone please tell me how they know ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about the mass/size of these ice sheets when they, the IPCC, admit in the same report(2007) they were off by 40%.
They write in that 2007 report referenced above:
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_dat ... #table-4-3
"volume estimates differ considerably from 51 × 103 to 133 × 103 km3, " Yet apparently from the blog quote right above they have new data that ice loss led to sea level rise when they have no idea how much ice there is in the first place!!!

so since apparently loss of arctic ice is not going to cause sea level rise, and they don't even know how much other ice we have, and at least antarctic sea ice is definitely GROWING, how can they tell us that we have anything whatsoever to worry about sea level rise using current data, which is not data, but only projections?

The more I have looked into this the more I think WTF, these people have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what they are doing!!!!
i take that back, they know exactly what they are doing, and they plod inexorably forward...

back later regarding Arctic.
 
MarcC":36vnukuf said:
For dog's sake Tony, learn how to use the quote function already!!!!
Fixed. That's probably the first time I've forgotten that in over a year. A bit cranky today, are we? Why don't you go out and get some of the powder that's dumping this week and mellow out a little?

I think the sea level rise projections are mostly conjecture and BS for many of the reasons listed by SnowbirdDevotee. It is also correct that while the Arctic is warming, most of the Antarctic is not. Nonetheless Arctic summer ice melt is different from Antarctic ice melt because it's cumulative and a potential source of positive feedback.
 
Interesting that the Bering straight, right next door to the Arctic, had a record winter sea ice high last winter.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere ... ion.2.html
I am not sure if the CO2 arctic amplification theory has any standing in the Bering straight, but the last 4 out of the last 5 yrs had record (or close to) winter sea ice, and once again it is trending at a positive anomaly.

There are a few reasons modern climate science has become what it is.
1st, thermometers came into widespread use in 1880, right at the end of the LIA, so all land based thermometers show an increasing trend since then. The gullible public can easily be fooled into thinking that the temps in 1880 were the "right" temps, and when they see that increasing scary increase since then, which is not disputed, that something is not right.
The 2nd reason is that satellites went up in the mid-70's and arctic ice began to be measured in 1979, just a little after the global cooling and the low global temp.'s in the mid 70's. So again, like temp, people look at the starting point of the ice graph and think that the beginning of the right was the "right" and normal measurement.
There are many old newspaper articles on the web warning of Arctic warming and melting. Here's one from 1922.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/03/16/y ... ergs-melt/
there are many, many others.

I don't see how a few extra degrees of temperature are causing the ice to melt in the arctic. Look at the daily arctic temp graph.
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php
It's hard to read because it's in Kelvin. But the blue line is freezing. So for about 80 days per years the temp averages above freezing. call it 274K or 34F. And I wonder if there is really much diurnal variation in that, because there is no night, only day. So maybe it is rare for it to get even over 40F in the summer.

Go here
http://www.climate4you.com/
and click on Polar Temperatures on left. There are a bunch of different data sets but they all show Arctic warming of about 3-4F.
In the winter, when there is no sun, what I wonder is how much greenhouse effect can there be, because there is no heatsource for warming, that's why it is so cold? Is there even a greenhouse effect??? So is the ice loss caused by less water freezing thicker in the winter or because of heavy melt in the summer, compared to priors years of satellite data that we have. Good question i think.

Will a higher temp of 3-4F cause all that ice to melt in the summer? To me the other theories make more sense.
The first one is the thickness of the arctic ice is tied more to the ocean currents, specifically the Atlantic MO and the Arctic Osc. Or the PDO as Bastardi says, didn't he start this thread? And if you look at this guys bottom graph of arctic temp with the AMO
http://notrickszone.com/2010/09/25/arct ... d-not-co2/
they very neatly coincide.

Just as shown in these references
https://www.google.com/search?q=arctic+ ... lr=lang_en

Of course the "scientists" take all the worry and research away and just say it's fossil fuel use, end of story! And the media or popular science TV never even gives a hint there could be other factors than CO2.

The other theory of why the globe has warmed a degree since the mid 1970's (but it has stopped since 1998) is the cloud theory. Some papers show we have less clouds the past couple decades and that they are getting lower.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/research-ar ... -response/
and more recent
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2012-046
then there is an article by NASA saying clouds are getting lower which may be causing cooling, maybe they were higher from 1975-1998??
and then there is a study showing the sun's output (irradiance) could be a factor in European glaciers decreasing in mass.
google this paper
A geochronological approach to understanding the role of solar activity on Holocene glacier length variability in the Swiss Alps

Another thing is wind. Even NASA admits that the wind caused some of the Arctic sea ice to melt in the record low season of 2012.
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogal ... =152489941
And I vaguely recall they might of? said the same thing about 2007? For sure a bad storm could be a factor in causing decreased iced in a given year or a few years after, but it wouldn't affect a long-term trend.

Now as a skier, what is more important to the snow melting, a 2-4F of temperature difference between 36-40F or more sun? To me, it's the sun.
When we have a good snow year here in Pa, melting proceeds as the temp.'s go over about 40F. Not much melting happens until then. What really causes the melting is when it's over 40F and in a sunny spot. I can have snow in the shady spots or the north sides of hills for many weeks after ALL of the snow has melted. If it's 40F and cloudy, there won't be much melting. The difference between 40F cloudy or 40F sunny is dramatic.

Have the world's glaciers melted since 1850 because the world has warmed by 2F, is it more likely that we have less clouds?? Same for arctic?

Now here is something interesting. In the Fagan's books I referred to above regarding historical climate change. And he writes he is a "believer" in the so-called consensus view of AGW, (of course he has to be - or he would get nowhere in the academic world!!!) but he gives a few paragraphs in The Little Ice Age to a researcher who looked at thousands of painting through the ages that had landscapes in them. What that researcher found was that in the historically warmer times of climate the paintings showed less clouds and in the cooler periods more clouds. Of course, that's not good "evidence", but I think the study was done before modern day climate science became such a political and overwhelming frenzy. It was just a harmless study in the "good ole days" of science. When people tried to find the truth of things and millions/billions of dollars and career aspirations were at stake if you didn't come up with the right stuff to fit the current consensus model.
 
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