Shames Mtn Coop in Terrace BC

[soulskier]

I'm curious where soulskier lives.

I will be happy to give you my background a bit. But I want to make sure it is crystal clear that my wife and I simply floated an idea and it stuck. We are now at the stage of having the Co-op evolve and take shape. We are merely the people that invited people to a party. Now it's up to the invitees to show up and have a good time.

I currently live in Bariloche, the Lakes District of Patagonia. My wife and I first came to Argentina in 2002 for our honeymoon. As lifelong passionate skiers, it only made sense to take a skiing honeymoon. We went to Las Leñas and then to Buenos Aires. Needless to say, the terrain at Las Leñas, along with the vibe of Argentina, not to mention how far the dollar went, left a lasting impression. In 2004, we were not happy with the direction the US was going and started talking about selling our home, ie take the money and run. Our new place in the world had 3 criteria points. There needed to be outrageous skiing close by, people had to be open to Americans and the dollar had to be strong. Argentina was the runaway winner.

Since we wanted to be close to Las Leñas, we started identifying where we could live. To make a long story short, we ended up buying a 65 acre wine, plum and olive vineyard just south of San Rafael, about 2 hours from Las Leñas. We could be from our farm to the top of Marte in 3.5 hours. The idea was to be in Las Leñas when the skiing was on (and Marte running) and home on the farm the rest of the winter.

While we cherished our two years on the farm, we missed living in the mountains, the farm was in the high desert and we looked out towards the big Andes. (I had previously lived in Tahoe my whole adult life and my wife for 10 years) Also, the reality was in our two years at Las Leñas, Marte chair was only open about 25% of the time, including a 40 day stretch where it was only open for 1 afternoon. In addition, we realized for us, if you move from a first world country to a developing country, it makes sense to live in the first world part of the country, which is Buenos Aires, and as we quickly found out Bariloche.

We took a trip to Bariloche and Patagonia and within a couple hours knew it was our new home. Fast forward to now and while we absolutely love our lifestyle, the skiing here is basic, not interesting and have reminded us what our priorities are in life. That was further confirmed in the last several weeks when we returned to Las Leñas and found our souls recharged by great skiing.

This whole Co-op concept has been thought about for many years, just in a different form. Then, in early September, we had just finished skiing at our local hill and were frustrated with the lack of lifts open, lame employees, overall bad operations, etc. We both agreed it would be wonderful to find a cool ski resort, buy it with other like minded skiers and run it the right way. 2 days later, a good friend emailed me the Shames listing and said to "check this out". Within about 5 minutes, we confirmed the terrain and snowpack was in place, so we contacted a couple of locals with the global co-op idea. They both responded immediately and thought it was a great idea.

That's the long version of where we live.

To be clear, if we weren't big mountain skiers, Bariloche would be the ideal place to live for us. But we are passionate skiers, and Las Leñas (which has some of the best lift accessed big mtn skiing on the planet) is 14 hours to the north and is only "game on" from time to time. Hence the need for something else.

 

[soulskier]

But now we know soulskier wants to add another 1,000 vertical lift service to access some of that world class terrain. How can that possibly be financed? Several thousand coop members at $500 a pop is a much more sensible plan than going into more debt. In addition to the coop members needed to pay the existing debt. Good luck finding that many people though.

Just to reiterate, it isn't about any one person. Whatever the shareholders and the Co-op decides is best will be the course of direction.

As far as finances, please see my earlier post about raising money. The existing debt is included in the purchase price. For 1.5 mill CDN, the slate is clean.

One idea/ pipedream I have is to have Shames test the world's first prototype earth friendly lift.

Here is an article my wife did with POW last year. http://www.nthword.com/pow.php We have already been in contact with them and I have high hopes they will lend their expertise on the subject of sustainable and environmental development.

 

[soulskier]

Your question:

Lastly, I am still not understanding why you feel connecting in Vancouver for a two hour flight is a logistical nightmare?

My answer:

just for giggles I just priced a flight from Salt Lake City for a week in February. The cheapest round-trip fare I could find is $1074 round trip and that requires an 18-hour outbound travel day! I'll admit that for a relatively insignificant $120 more I could get that down to 6h 50m with an annoying two plane changes, but you get my point. This isn't the kind of place that an out-of-town shareholder will be heading to every weekend, or even once a month. Maybe they'll get there once a year, but anyone with that kind of dough will spend it on a heli elsewhere in B.C.

From other places (and I also checked from surrounding airports in any city with multiple departure points):

LAX: $986 (9h 30m)
SFO: $939 (6h 25m)
SEA: $813 (5h 15m)
YVR (Vancouver): $588 (1h 55m non-stop)
DEN: $1026 (12h 10m)
JFK: $1101 (13h 15m)
YYZ (Toronto): $1290 (7h 50m)

a $1200+ ticket from virtually any US or Canadian population center other than Vancouver isn't bad, it's obscene! And a discount from some two-bit puddle jumper airline that services only Terrace, Smithers, Prince Rupert and Vancouver doesn't mean jack crap unless you live in Vancouver. Right now, checking the same dates I tried last night it would cost you CAN $398 to fly Hawkair from Vancouver to Terrace. Let's say that they discount the fare 25% for shareholders - that's still $283.21 USD at today's exchange rate plus the fare to get from your origin city to Vancouver. You'd also have to coordinate flight times into and out of Vancouver with Hawkair's departure and arrival times, so in all likelihood you wouldn't enjoy the good fortune of being able to choose the least expensive flight option to Vancouver. End result? No cheaper than the fares I quoted last night.

I just did a quick check for a random week in Feb from Salt Lake to Vancouver and found prices under US$400. LAX was $410. Portland was $287. SFO was $438. These prices are roundtrip and include all fees and taxes.

From Seattle, guests could drive 3 hours to Vancouver airport and fly direct to Terrace. I respectfully disagree with your figures.

From SLC-YVR, Alaska Air has a 5 hour trip with one connection in Portland on the day I choose. Hawk Air has a morning and a late afternoon flight Vancouver-Terrace.

I don't see any challenge in connecting in Vancouver. Then again, I live in Argentina which not only requires an overnight flight to Buenos Aires, but then having to change airports to fly domestically.

 

[soulskier]

Not to disagree with you, but do we know that it's currently losing money?

It it were making money it wouldn't be on the market for $1.5M.

Here's a quote from local newspaper. Mr Martin is the current president of the board.

The mountain is listed for nearly $1.5 million, and Martin said money from season passholders and skiers come close to covering the operating costs, but is not sufficient to paying back some debt.

Remember the new owners will not inherit any debt.

Consider that no marketing has ever been done (until the Co-op concept was floated last month), the restaurant closes before the lifts, the ski school is very underdeveloped, no branding or imaging, merchandising, etc. So while Shames mountain hasn't made money to date, the current ownership (who are well like and respected in the community and have graciously kept the mountain going with their own money), haven't exactly exhausted all their options to turn a profit.

In saying that, I strongly believe that tapping in the global collective intelligence (we have been already contacted by some very
knowledgeable people in the ski industry that love the idea and have offered to help), will allow us to right the wrongs and increase revenues on many fronts. No operational challenge that Shames Mountain faces hasn't been dealt with before. We aren't going to reinvent the wheel, only find the best solution to each challenge presented.

On that note, it should be made clear that the global ski community will be working to support the locals. "Hey, can we come to your party, we will bring some hot chicks and boos?". Seriously though, there are some very passionate locals that choose Terrace to call home because of Shames. It is their mountain and the only way this will work is if they take the ball and run with it, which by all accounts they are doing. More on that later.

And as I stated before, it is safe to assume at least some global shareholders will come visit, as well as talk up their investment. The overall positive guest experience, ie a mountain run by skiers for skiers and high probrability of great ski days, will keep people coming back and the word will spread. That only will increase ticket sales from it's current state.

 

[soulskier]

I wanted to take a moment and thank you guys for offering your constructive criticism. Not only do I think it is productive, but you bring up valid points as well as perception, which is reality until shown differently. I kindly request you continue.

And since I am a newcomer to this board, thanks for accepting me and not telling me to take "my propaganda" elsewhere.

Lastly, this whole concept was formed by unsatisfied skiers. (Between my wife and I, we have had over 55 season passes. Not once have we felt appreciated as customers, unless you include the free hamburger Squaw Valley gave us on the last day of each season.) I believe if we do this Co-op correctly, it will raise the bar and change the standard for how ski areas should be ran. In short, making business decisions based on what's best for the environment, the community and the skiers.

 

[Admin]

I wanted to take a moment and thank you guys for offering your constructive criticism. Not only do I think it is productive, but you bring up valid points as well as perception, which is reality until shown differently. I kindly request you continue.

And since I am a newcomer to this board, thanks for accepting me and not telling me to take "my propaganda" elsewhere.

That's the spirit in which FTO Liftlines was founded and continues to this day. Although we're coming off our annual slow season, the denizens of these forums are the same passionate skiers that you describe in your posts, above. As mentioned earlier, they tend to be very well-informed and "inside baseball" types when it comes to the ski industry. We also have a large number of readers/subscribers within the industry itself as a result. I guarantee that your thoughts and ideas will be welcomed and absorbed by our community.

So I'm fascinated by your concept and as I've said several times, I truly hope that it's successful. Reading your last few posts above and gaining some background I confess that I'm more encouraged, although I still have the reservations that I've espoused.

Patrick first brought the co-op proposal for Shames to my attention about a month ago, roughly around the same time that I ran a news story about the sale of Shames:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/News/2 ... -for-Sale/

As Patrick linked to earlier, he and Luc have traveled there in the past and regaled us with stunning photos and tales of deep powder and steep lines. Many of us here -- yours truly included -- are fascinated by the "second tier" and exotic ski destinations (we've run a feature in the past on skiing in Kamchatka, I'm doing a press visit myself to Ruby Mountain Heli in eastern Nevada this winter for a feature, etc.). So something like a rebirth of Shames is always on our radar.

Please continue to keep us in the loop regarding your progress. And I suspect that once the weekend passes this conversation will continue to flourish (things are a bit quieter around here over the weekend).

FYI I just tweeted a link to the conversation: http://www.twitter.com/FirstTracksMag

 

[soulskier]

I wanted to take a moment and thank you guys for offering your constructive criticism. Not only do I think it is productive, but you bring up valid points as well as perception, which is reality until shown differently. I kindly request you continue.

And since I am a newcomer to this board, thanks for accepting me and not telling me to take "my propaganda" elsewhere.

That's the spirit in which FTO Liftlines was founded and continues to this day. Although we're coming off our annual slow season, the denizens of these forums are the same passionate skiers that you describe in your posts, above. As mentioned earlier, they tend to be very well-informed and "inside baseball" types when it comes to the ski industry. We also have a large number of readers/subscribers within the industry itself as a result. I guarantee that your thoughts and ideas will be welcomed and absorbed by our community.

So I'm fascinated by your concept and as I've said several times, I truly hope that it's successful. Reading your last few posts above and gaining some background I confess that I'm more encouraged, although I still have the reservations that I've espoused.

Patrick first brought the co-op proposal for Shames to my attention about a month ago, roughly around the same time that I ran a news story about the sale of Shames:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/News/2 ... -for-Sale/

As Patrick linked to earlier, he and Luc have traveled there in the past and regaled us with stunning photos and tales of deep powder and steep lines. Many of us here -- yours truly included -- are fascinated by the "second tier" and exotic ski destinations (we've run a feature in the past on skiing in Kamchatka, I'm doing a press visit myself to Ruby Mountain Heli in eastern Nevada this winter for a feature, etc.). So something like a rebirth of Shames is always on our radar.

Please continue to keep us in the loop regarding your progress. And I suspect that once the weekend passes this conversation will continue to flourish (things are a bit quieter around here over the weekend).

FYI I just tweeted a link to the conversation: http://www.twitter.com/FirstTracksMag

Thanks for the follow up post. I really appreciate the opportunity to make the case as to why I think this Co-op concept can succeed. My instinct also tells me that many visitors to this message board are of the business and smart variety, quite possibly much more so than many of the other ski industry message boards. I look forward to their feedback. Like I said before, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

A special thanks for the Twitter plug. Social networking has and will continue to be paramount to the success of this project, especially on the non local (global ski community) level. On that note, can I mention the Facebook Fan page here? We are closing in on 1,000 fans in less than a month, which is pretty exciting.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Shames-Mo ... 384?ref=ts

 

[Admin]

On that note, can I mention the Facebook Fan page here?

Of course!

 

[Tony Crocker]

So, about 10,000 shareholders are needed. Mad River Glen has sold 2,158 shares, though MRG shares cost $2,000.

Interesting. I would not discount the possibility that at $500 Shames may get more than a few "impulse buyers" who never get around to making the trek up there once they find out how difficult it is. Supposedly quite a few of the similarly priced Mammoth MVP passes get sold each April and never are used the next season.

 

[soulskier]

So, about 10,000 shareholders are needed. Mad River Glen has sold 2,158 shares, though MRG shares cost $2,000.

Please see my above thoughts about partnering with companies (maybe http://www.the bestsnow.net would be interested?) as well as the Canadian Co-op Initiative Program and their grants. Also, many people will buy more than one share.

Interesting. I would not discount the possibility that at $500 Shames may get more than a few "impulse buyers" who never get around to making the trek up there once they find out how difficult it is.

I respectfully disagree it is difficult to get there from many west coast locals. It is a 2 hour flight from Vancouver.

Supposedly quite a few of the similarly priced Mammoth MVP passes get sold each April and never are used the next season.

But a share lasts forever, and might one day be worth more.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I don't know what went into determining the share price, but it's an interesting economic puzzle. My gut feeling is that the low price (relative to MRG etc) is a good idea in attracting the impulse buyers outside the local region.

the denizens of these forums are the same passionate skiers that you describe in your posts, above. As mentioned earlier, they tend to be very well-informed and "inside baseball" types when it comes to the ski industry.

With surprisingly diverse priorities when it comes to skiing, if you're read many of the :snowball fight: threads here. Patrick, one of our well traveled junkies, has already been to Shames. With Shames in its current configuration I would only be tempted to visit in conjunction with a trip to one of the nearby heli companies, Last Frontier (I've been with TLH and like them a lot) or Northern Escape(?), a newer operation. Some of the regulars who put more of an emphasis on sidecountry (salida, JSpin?) may be more tempted than I.

The background was useful to read. I've been to Las Lenas, and as spectacular as the terrain is, it would never occur to me as a place to live. Argentina has a rather sorry history of governance since it was supposedly among the top 10 countries in standard of living in the 1930's. My father had the wanderlust gene, knew he wanted to work/travel outside the US growing up in the 1920's, and Argentina was actually the place he most wanted to see. His foreign service (with Citibank) was in the Far East from 1933-1941, but after WWII he was an inspector for Latin America and finally made it to Argentina then. Nowadays, I'd think New Zealand would be a lot more comfortable place to live than Argentina. I presume European options (which have by far the most of the skiing terrain you like) were too expensive. Why not live in interior British Columbia for that matter?

 

[soulskier]

The background was useful to read. I've been to Las Lenas, and as spectacular as the terrain is, it would never occur to me as a place to live. Argentina has a rather sorry history of governance since it was supposedly among the top 10 countries in standard of living in the 1930's. My father had the wanderlust gene, knew he wanted to work/travel outside the US growing up in the 1920's, and Argentina was actually the place he most wanted to see. His foreign service (with Citibank) was in the Far East from 1933-1941, but after WWII he was an inspector for Latin America and finally made it to Argentina then. Nowadays, I'd think New Zealand would be a lot more comfortable place to live than Argentina. I presume European options (which have by far the most of the skiing terrain you like) were too expensive. Why not live in interior British Columbia for that matter?

Don't be fooled Mr Crocker, there are few places in the world I am aware of that combine the quality of what Argentina offers for the price. When I tell my friends back in the States we cut our cost of living into a third and traded up a social class, they don't believe me.

With 3 minutes from our home, we have 4 amazing 4 to 5 star restaurants and the one of the nicest, if not the nicest hotel in South America, Hotel Llao Llao.

Not only was Europe too expensive, but around late 2004 Americans were not overly embraced in places like Austria, Germany and France.

One of the other reasons for our lifestyle change was to learn another culture and language. Our time in Argentina has taught us some amazing life lessons. Also, here in the Lakes District of Patagonia has to be one of the most beautiful habitable places on earth.

 

[soulskier]

I don't know what went into determining the share price, but it's an interesting economic puzzle. My gut feeling is that the low price (relative to MRG etc) is a good idea in attracting the impulse buyers outside the local region.

Well it hasn't been determined, that will be figured out as the business plan takes shape, but I favor the $500 price. I feel that most anyone can afford that amount. You could buy 6 shares instead of a plasma screen. I believe the more shares sold will translate into more skier visits, between both people wanting to ski powder and check on their investment as well as the built in marketing, ie shareholders talking up their investment.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

around late 2004 Americans were not overly embraced in places like Austria, Germany and France.

Apologies for hundredth repeat of this rant... but if you speak the native language, learn about the culture, and not spout U.S.-centric, right-wing rhetoric, you will be welcomed. I'm sure it's similar in Argentina.

Euros are so accustomed to Yanks and Limeys coming over there and living in an insular bubble, that when someone breaks this cycle, they take notice and treat you like a rock star.

 

[soulskier]

around late 2004 Americans were not overly embraced in places like Austria, Germany and France.

Apologies for hundredth repeat of this rant... but if you speak the native language, learn about the culture, and not spout U.S.-centric, right-wing rhetoric, you will be welcomed. I'm sure it's similar in Argentina.

Euros are so accustomed to Yanks and Limeys coming over there and living in an insular bubble, that when someone breaks this cycle, they take notice and treat you like a rock star.

We were in Munich right after Bush's axis of evil speech and even though my wife speaks fluent German, I can assure you we were not overly accepted. In fact, I had a lengthy and not very enjoyable conversation with two Germans about "my" president's agenda in the bathroom of a nice restaurant.

Argentines don't care where you are from because they are all immigrants and have had corrupt politicians forever. They know there is a big difference between the people and the government.

 

[Patrick]

Oh boy, I have a lot of reading to catch up. I just have enough time to comment on James' post.

around late 2004 Americans were not overly embraced in places like Austria, Germany and France.

Apologies for hundredth repeat of this rant... but if you speak the native language, learn about the culture, and not spout U.S.-centric, right-wing rhetoric, you will be welcomed.

We were in Munich right after Bush's axis of evil speech and even though my wife speaks fluent German, I can assure you we were not overly accepted. In fact, I had a lengthy and not very enjoyable conversation with two Germans about "my" president's agenda in the bathroom of a nice restaurant.

I'll have side with soulskier, I was in France the entire month of March 2003 when the Iraq war started, I can tell you that it was the first time I really felt that Americans were, to say the less, not "overly embraced". Although I'm a Canadian and speak French with a Quebec accent, questions also arose (outside a tourist setting) if Canada backed the US. 8-[ Happy that they didn't.

 

[Admin]

Ironically, I was in France at the same time as Patrick, in Courchevel on a press trip in March 2003 a week before we went into Iraq. I therefore found myself riding a long chairlift with a reporter from Le Figaro. Those who know me know that my politics trend well right of center, and the reporter started into a diatribe about our administration's posture. I continued to stare straight ahead as I spoke, and quietly told him that the only politics I was there to discuss were the politics of skiing, and that if he persisted I was going to promptly shove him off the chairlift at the highest point possible. The rest of that long lift ride was thankfully silent.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I was at a NASJA meeting in Quebec City/Charlevoix the week of the Iraq invasion. I rode a Grands-Fonds chairlift with a couple of Quebec ladies who challenged me on the topic, but it went quite differently than admin's experience. I supported the invasion but it was a respectful exchange of views. Their parting comment was, "we still disagree with you but I wish Bush had explained it as well."

So my question for soulskier remains, "Why not Canada or New Zealand?" Much more competent government than Argentina, without the European arrogance. And I suspect Patrick does not have the warmest of feelings toward the Argentine people at the moment, his experience perhaps being some of the fallout from those decades of incompetence.

 

[Patrick]

Ironically, I was in France at the same time as Patrick, in Courchevel on a press trip in March 2003 a week before we went into Iraq.

That is so ironic (we've mentioned this before) as I was that the same time as Admin at les 3 vallées during the same week, however at the other extreme, at Val Thorens and compared to Admin political views, I'd probably be called a communist by far-right Americans, :lol:

I wish Bush had explained it as well."

Not laughing at you Tony, only that regardless of the explanation, all the reasons mentioned by the Bush Administration for going in Iraq were wrong (end of my political commentary).

So my question for soulskier remains, "Why not Canada or New Zealand?" Much more competent government than Argentina, without the European arrogance.

After 3 trips to South America and another of trips to Europe. A few quick observations that I understand why people from NA or Europe move to SA. The Andes are spectacular. Underdeveloped and off-the-beaten path, especially 5 years ago. Your money goes a far way. Soulskier mentioned one of the reasons why they didn't choose Europe. The cost. The cost logic, although cheaper in Canada and NZ, would still be so much more expensive than Argentina.

And I suspect Patrick does not have the warmest of feelings toward the Argentine people at the moment, his experience perhaps being some of the fallout from those decades of incompetence.

Actually I just have a problem with some Argentina taxi drivers. I might need to return and repeat this year trip just to get some photographic evidence of the beauty of this year's tour. Anyway, people were nice and that is probably why I let my guard down (fatigue also) when I arrived in Buenos Aires. Taxi driver mentioned my money wasn't any good and he mentioned that I should go to the ATM. First ATM didn't work, by the second ATM (which worked) he was gone. I've been second guessing myself and going over that cab ride. They were a few things that were odds, but I was tired...I wanted to get at the Hostel as fast as I could. The fact that there was a Police Officer next the ATM might have scared him off, especially that he might not have understood why my card didn't work at the first bank machine. Still thing that the driver just wanted to ripe me off "money wise", not necessarily steal my stuff, but I will never know for sure.

 

[soulskier]

So my question for soulskier remains, "Why not Canada or New Zealand?" Much more competent government than Argentina, without the European arrogance. And I suspect Patrick does not have the warmest of feelings toward the Argentine people at the moment, his experience perhaps being some of the fallout from those decades of incompetence.

Because we bought a 65 acre farm with a wine vineyard, plum orchard and a brand new beautiful home for under US$100,000. The farm was 2 hours from Las Leñas, home to some of the best lift served terrain on the planet. We wanted to learn a new culture and language.

While what happened to Patrick is unfortunate, it was just a bad case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In our 4.5 years here, we have had very little issues, toque en madera.

Also, the government's incompetence doesn't directly affect us. Something I can't say was the case between early 2001-early 2009 in the United States. In fact, Argentina is virtually lawless, for example you won't get pulled over for a moving violation. It is much less of a police state than many other countries, something I consider a form of government interference. (The obvious downside is what happened to Patrick gives him no recourse. The key is to minimize your exposure.)

Anyways, I think we were talking about a global ski co-op.