Ski Area Count 2023 Update

[Tony Crocker]

Regional breakdown with Liz, Lonnie and EMSC added:

Region	ChrisC​	TonyC​	James​	Patrick​	Liz​	Lonnie​	EMSC​
Eastern Canada	4​	4​	18​	68​	4​	0​	0​
US Northeast	67​	8​	28​	31​	23​	1​	35​
US Atlantic+Southeast+Midwest	25​	1​	7​	3​	3​	0​	13​
US Northwest	18​	16​	2​	4​	7​	30​	2​
US Southwest	24​	28​	0​	4​	16​	34​	9​
Colorado	23​	22​	12​	2​	20​	27​	24​
Utah	10​	13​	9​	2​	11​	15​	11​
Other US Rockies	23​	32​	13​	6​	24​	50​	7​
Western Canada	23​	38​	3​	22​	17​	26​	10​
Austria	6​	16​	33​	2​	14​	0​	0​
France	27​	24​	24​	16​	25​	0​	5​
Italy	8​	15​	1​	3​	14​	0​	0​
Switzerland	25​	19​	44​	4​	14​	0​	0​
Other Europe	0​	4​	3​	0​	4​	0​	0​
Asia	5​	11​	0​	0​	8​	0​	0​
Southern Hemisphere	4​	25​	0​	28​	9​	0​	0​
Total	292​	276​	197​	195​	213​	183​	116​

Only Liz has skied in all of the listed regions, unless you count my day at Lutsen. But qualitatively it seems right to lump the Midwest with Atlantic and Southeast rather than with Northeast.

I'm surprised for as many years EMSC was in upstate NY, he never made it north of the border.

 

[ChrisC]

I've skied most of the upper-tier New England areas. The only ones left are Killington, Mount Snow, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf. At some point, I'll ski all of them just to see what they're like; however, only Sugarloaf is of real interest.

I find it a bit humorous that you have avoided Killington for so long. There are some retro throwback areas of Killington that go underutilized (traditional New England trails/mostly natural snow):

• Homestretch / 4-Mile Trail. Easy intermediate run that goes down to the gondola.
• Roundabout, Breakaway, Jug Handle. South Ridge.
• Catwalk, Escapade, Downdraft. Killington Peak.
• Royal Flush, North Star, Vagabond. Snowdon.

Sunday River succeeded because it has the best snowmaking system in the ME, NH, and Southern VT areas. Only Killington and Okemo could compare. Although the terrain has good high-speed cruising, it's a bit soulless.

Sugarloaf is great. Do not believe the hype about 'Above Treeline Skiing'/'Snowfields'. There is one wind-swept snowmaking run that is an ice sheet. And the other parts of the 'Snowfields' never get enough coverage to link more than a few turns. Lots of rocks, but nice views. Some great classic New England runs where its old gondola was located, and modern cruising off its HS Quads.

 

[EMSC]

I'm surprised for as many years EMSC was in upstate NY, he never made it north of the border.

Too much race chasing. Only when you are at the 'about to be on the national development team' level do the race circuits/needs become international. So all my race chasing was in the US including many of my VT days and my only ski trip into NH. The US ski team especially does not like late bloomers (at all), which was what I was. Of course I didn't know that at the time. Plus vast majority of my NY time I was reliant on parent driving or parent approval of various events and travel growing up.

By the time I was an adult and in NY for a brief bit (for grad school in Buffalo), I was coaching racing at Holimont for $$ on the side, and a very long drive from any eastern Canadian skiing that was worth while. I sure wasn't going across the border for the nearby Ontario molehills that were no different than the local molehills. Heck, private club Holimont has 50% Canadian membership due to the lack of good options in Ontario.


**************
Lonnies list is impressively long for having no mid-west or eastern days NOR any Asia or Europe.

Mount Snow,

Especially crowded and uninteresting IMO.

25 are closed or got merged into another resort.

Depending on how many merged, that easily beats my number. I suspect most were 1 t-bar or 1 chair kind of places that logically cannot get enough scale to financially provide snowmaking, grooming, etc... in a modern ski context?

 

[ChrisC]

James - Did you include Murren on your list?

Tony - Did you think Les Menuires qualified as a standalone area?

 

[ChrisC]

About 40 of my East Coast ski areas have 1000 vertical ft or less. And 22 have 700 vertical feet or less. Maybe Patrick has skied more Molehills.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Tony - Did you think Les Menuires qualified as a standalone area?

No. I think Orelle has a more clear cut geographic boundary but decided against that one too. Can you you get cheaper day tickets for subsets of Trois Vallees?

Some of the Euro cases are very subjective. Liz did not split Via Lattea, yet she counted 7 in the Dolomites while I counted 4.

Likely not 400. I have covered the most easy-to-access mountains in the US, Canada, and possibly Europe. And I do not want to seek out Tier 3 or 4 areas to boost counts.

The definition of Tier 3 or 4 in the West or Europe is not as clear cut as in the East. See Castle and Discovery as Exhibits A & B.

About 40 of my East Coast ski areas have 1000 vertical ft or less. And 22 have 700 vertical feet or less. Maybe Patrick has skied more Molehills.

This is where I generally draw the line at not seeking out. I believe I have one area under 700, Canada Olympic Park in Calgary, which was part of a comped trip from Travel Alberta and included an Olympic museum and some facilities. The other two under 1,000 are in SoCal: Ski Sunrise (now Mt. High North, rarely open, even this year I don't think so) and Kratka Ridge (defunct since 2001). Kratka's 700 has some interesting terrain. There were a couple of other lost SoCal areas, Green Valley and Snow Forest, that even in my formative years in the 1970's I did not think were worth my time. The only place under 1,000 that comes to mind as uniquely worth visiting (but I would still need to be in the region for another reason) is Mt. Bohemia.

Lonnies list is impressively long for having no mid-west or eastern days NOR any Asia or Europe.

110 of those areas were first skied in the last 3 years. As a recent retiree he has the time but he says not the budget to range farther afield. There are a lot of areas he visited that I would not. After last season's recap I found 7 areas on his list so obscure that former admin, James and I had all missed them while creating the Google Earth kml file. I've found two more this week. Little Ski HiIl is 400 vertical in McCall, ID and even Snowave (who lives 10 miles away) has never mentioned it. Mt. Pilchuck, WA is more interesting. It was 1,800 vertical and Lonnie skied it while growing up in Seattle. It closed after the still worst ever drought season of 1976-77, incorrectly stated as a year later in this very informative article.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Likely not 400. I have covered the most easy-to-access mountains in the US, Canada, and possibly Europe.

I'd still guess that's about where ChrisC will end up, gradually vs. the pace that James and I have been adding new areas recently. Last season ChrisC had an itinerary much overlapping ours, adding 8 new areas vs. our 11. Why? The southern French Alps had the overall best conditions during a difficult part of the season. Liz and I also arrived in Europe during a dry spell in March 2022. During both of these trips it made sense to us to prioritize seeing new places. When conditions are as fabulous as they were in Val d'Isere in April 2018, we are more inclined to stay put.

Since Liz and I started these flexible Alps trips in 2017, we have been piling up new areas rapidly. The Arlberg is the only Euro ski complex where I have more than one trip of multiple days and one of those was in 2013 without Liz. James might protest, but we may be approaching the point where we will be more like ChrisC and start returning to some Alps favorites.

• Italy - Dolomites. Cortina and Val Gardena/Arabba.
• Austria - Solden/Obergurgl, Kitzbuhel, Saalbach. Some of the glacier resorts (Stubai, Hintertux, Pitztal, Kaprun).

Given ChrisC's modest totals of 6 in Austria and 8 in Italy, that's likely a source of many more new ones.

BC - Cat skiing. Castle Mountain.

How good is Castle? This season it moved from #15 to #12 on my most skied list, passing Vail, Heavenly and Jackson. As for cat skiing I hit the age of affordability (where ChrisC and EMSC are now) in the late 1990's, which was the era of major expansion in cat/heli operations in B.C. I was thus able to try 9 cat areas, sometimes on fairly short notice. Those days are mostly over. The only ones I've wanted to ski but probably never will are Selkirk Wilderness and Monashee Powder.

Maybe I will make it to New Zealand, but South America seems less likely.

There are enough interesting things to do in New Zealand that's worth the trip even with erratic ski conditions. In terms of terrain and big lines, Las Lenas is ChrisC's cup of tea, but he'll have to be patient and wait for a big year like 2005 and perhaps take Adam's advice and then commit to two weeks to make it more likely to get enough days with Marte open.

Scuba diving more locations.

I have 251 dives, but I have been to a few bucket list places: Palau, Truk, Raja Ampat, Komodo, Great Barrier Reef, Fiji, Sharm el Sheik. As for the Caribbean, at the recent scuba shows there were deals offered for liveaboard weeks in the Jardines de la Reina off the south coast of Cuba. According to the travel agent, travel to Cuba is actually easier now than when Liz and I did it in 2017.

And at the top of my bucket list retrospectively was the Ice Axe ski cruise to Antarctica. I'm sure ChrisC would enjoy that. Those trips are still happening.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Amongst our small group of skiers, it's fascinating to see the various ways that we pursue the sport

That's why I created that table by region. Patrick's streak speaks loud and clear in that table. He has skied more areas in the Southern Hemisphere (28) than in Europe (23), western Canada (22) or the western US (18).

 

[EMSC]

creating the Google Earth kml file. I've added two more this week.

I don't think the download link is currently working. I have that file from back around 2016 or so... tried to redownload today but just refreshes the page. I noted at least two tiny bumps in NY that are operating, but are not in the KML from back ~2016 (plus a few pins in slightly odd places). Was going to have you add them but not till I see the most up-to date version. Obviously not critical places, just fun to have for 'full coverage'.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The kml download has not worked since the FTO home page and non-forum pieces were moved to same server as the forum last fall. I can e-mail you the most recent one.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

James might protest, but we may be approaching the point where we will be more like ChrisC and start returning to some Alps favorites.

Why would I protest? I'm not telling you how to run your ski season. Skill level, terrain preferences, tolerance of crowds, cultural interests, language abilities, discretionary income, amount of free time, tolerance for long-distance travel, parental responsibilities, and/or significant-other participation all play a role in determining where and how often a person skis. Even in situations where the larger goal is the tail wagging the dog (e.g. a streak), I'm not going to be prescriptive and say "[Skier X] should instead concentrate his/her efforts in this way."

My general MO is that I a) enjoy discovering new-to-me regions where I speak the language, b) tend to prefer non-industrial ski areas but also like going to the big interconnected ones during off-peak periods, c) don't require or feel comfortable in double-black/DFU terrain, and (d) am accustomed to travelling in a cost-conscious manner (unless on a comp junket, in which case I take advantage of any de luxe experiences that present themselves). My being a variety junkie isn't in service of padding a ski-area-count list. I suppose that my only ulterior motive is that I'm performing reconnaissance for when I spend entire seasons across the pond.

 

[EMSC]

I'm performing reconnaissance for when I spend entire seasons across the pond.

Do tell...

I can e-mail you the most recent one.

Thanks. Looks like a lot fixed on this version, but have only glanced at a couple places so far.

 

[jimk]

One of the things I like about firsttracks is the intelligent discussion by a widely traveled bunch of skiers. My ski area count has been stuck around 100 for some time. In the last 6 years I've probably added less than 10 new to me places. So I'm getting boring, but I have a good and cheap way to spend winters in utah. I love exploring great new to me mtns, but I have to balance that against cost and convenience of my utah set up.

Also I am getting older and the desire for far flung travel is decreasing.

 

[Tony Crocker]

My ski area count has been stuck around 100 for some time. In the last 6 years I've probably added less than 10 new to me places. .................. cost and convenience of my utah set up

Deja vu. In the first iteration of this thread in 2006, the former admin and I were tied at 121 ski areas. He had recently moved to Utah and has added maybe 5 areas since.

Also I am getting older and the desire for far flung travel is decreasing.

By my observation when we skied once together at Snowbird, not that much older. And marathon drives to/from the East Coast are surely as taxing as Liz' and my international trips. If you are at all interested in skiing the Alps (or any kind of international travel) I'd recommend following Warren Miller's advice and do it sooner rather than later.

 

[jimk]

Deja vu. In the first iteration of this thread in 2006, the former admin and I were tied at 121 ski areas. He had recently moved to Utah and has added maybe 5 areas since.


By my observation when we skied once together at Snowbird, not that much older. And marathon drives to/from the East Coast are surely as taxing as Liz' and my international trips. If you are at all interested in skiing the Alps (or any kind of international travel) I'd recommend following Warren Miller's advice and do it sooner rather than later.

Yeah, the Wasatch is not a bad place if you decide to narrow your ski exploration focus. I have skied five places in Austria. Loved them all, loved the food/culture/people, but Utah is so much easier and I essentially get free lodging all winter with the assist from my son. The snow ain't bad in Utah either

 

[ChrisC]

Can you you get cheaper day tickets for subsets of Trois Vallees?

You can purchase a Val Thorens only lift ticket. Or a Les Menuires only lift ticket.

I did purchase a Val Thorens only lift ticket in Late April since the other resorts of the 3 Vallees (Meribel, Courchevel) were closing while I was there. However, Les Menuires remained open. I had to be careful not to ski into Les Menuires and get catwalks back to Val Thorens lifts.

The snow preservation of Val Thorens vs. Les Menuires was night and day. A full bowl of snow at VT and white ribbons at Les Menuires.

How good is Castle? This season it moved from #15 to #12 on my most skied list, passing Vail, Heavenly and Jackson.

Interesting.

There are enough interesting things to do in New Zealand that's worth the trip even with erratic ski conditions.

I have been to New Zealand once but made a South Island loop that went to Nelson/Marlborough Wine Country, Franz Joseph/Mt Cook, Queenstown, and Christchurch. Missed Milford Sound. It could be worthwhile, but it would be part vacation + a few days of skiing.

In terms of terrain and big lines, Las Lenas is ChrisC's cup of tea, but he'll have to be patient and wait for a big year like 2005 and perhaps take Adam's advice and then commit to two weeks to make it more likely to get enough days with Marte open.

I'm unsure if I would have the patience to wait for Marte. Rather be trapped in an Alaskan ski lodge. I saw cheap direct flights from Mendoza to Bariloche, so I would try adding that region. (I see the guys from Snowbrains take off to Catedal for most summers vs. anywhere else in South America. Think they were getting burned at Las Lenas for too many years.)

I have 251 dives, but I have been to a few bucket list places:

I have not done much Pacific scuba diving - Great Barrier Reef, Cabo San Lucas, and California (Channel Islands, Monterey Bay).

However, since I have family/friends in SoFL, lots of diving in the Caribbean/Atlantic can get tacked on to a visit or sailing tip. Also, going scuba for a day trip or a long weekend (3 days) is relatively easy. Some places I have been to include: South Florida (Jupiter, Ft. Lauderdale day trips), the Florida Keys (Key Largo day trips, Key West), Grenada/St. Vincent & Grenadines (sailing trip), St. Lucia (sailing trip), British Virgin Islands (sailing trips), US Virgin Islands (sailing trips), Curacao, Bonaire (shore diving), Grand Cayman/Little Cayman, Belize, Roatan, Cozumel, Yucatan (Tulum, Isla Mujeres - cenotes, whale sharks), and Turks & Caicos.

I find remote locations are the best since there is less human interference: Little Cayman, Belize (outer islands), Bonaire, etc. Cheap diving can be found at shore-diving locations: Bonaire, Curacao (no boat fees/just rent a pickup and fill up your tanks!), or less expensive countries: Cozumel & Yucatan, Mexico, and Roatan, Honduras. Hurricane season is a great time too for reduced airfares and lodging! (Except September when most things are closed).

Pacific Island diving is more of a week-long commitment. I have not done it. There is a big sailing community in Tahiti/Bora-Bora with obviously good scuba - a bucket list item. Four-to-eight people can charter a boat for a week for about the price of 2 nights at an overwater bungalow (had some friends do it recently). Galapagos look amazing but crazy expensive.

 

[ChrisC]

but Utah is so much easier and I essentially get free lodging all winter with the assist from my son. The snow ain't bad in Utah either

That is hard to give up.....or say 'no' too.

 

[Tony Crocker]

(I see the guys from Snowbrains take off to Catedral for most summers vs. anywhere else in South America. Think they were getting burned at Las Lenas too many years.)

Yes, and I recall an instance of 10 days of rain in Bariloche. Both places are a crapshoot but Las Lenas' upside is far higher. I think the Snowbrains rationale is that if you're spending a whole season down there, Bariloche is a lively resort town while Las Lenas is more like being trapped in an Alaskan ski lodge.

The snow preservation of Val Thorens vs. Les Menuires was night and day. A full bowl of snow at VT and white ribbons at Les Menuires.

Same with us at end of March 2022.

 

[Patrick]

Depending on how many merged, that easily beats my number. I suspect most were 1 t-bar or 1 chair kind of places that logically cannot get enough scale to financially provide snowmaking, grooming, etc... in a modern ski context?

A bit of a mixed bag of cases (on merged or closed areas). Some of them were one lift variety while other had multi lifts.

Of top of mind, ski areas skied that would merge or taken over:
Moonlight Basin > Big Sky MT
Blackcomb > Whistler BC
Mt Faustin > Mt Blanc QC

One great example that I skied post merger that I’ve never counted: Mt Ellen > Sugarbush VT

As for lost areas, I have Gray Rocks that had 6 lifts when they closed in 2008.

 

[Patrick]

Tony - Did you think Les Menuires qualified as a standalone area?

No. I think Orelle has a more clear cut geographic boundary but decided against that one too. Can you you get cheaper day tickets for subsets of Trois Vallées

I counted Les Menuires as a separate area. At the time that I skied it, you could buy a Les Menuires only lift ticket and I’m pretty sure the area was entirely separate from the other resorts at one point.

The logic applies to Brevent and Flegere.

Where things are more complicated is around the Jungfrau where initially the area was separated via out owned which lifts. Mount Buller was the same when it started out, 2 companies on the same terrain.

In the Jungfrau, I counted as two. I skied Grindelwald to Wengen on one ticket, but didn’t ski Grindelwald-First. I counted Murren as separate.