Snowbird/White Pine backcountry, Utah - 3/8/09

[Sharon]

Why not :stir:

it keeps the conversation going and brings up interesting points...plus, it is entertaining

I only brought up the pit thing because I was wondering when/where that is done and if people who go into the backcountry practice those techniques regularly, or if it is overlooked. Maybe it shouldn't be.

While that slope may have been generally NW facing, there was some hazard for north-facing slopes, and you can see quite well the shadow that the northern aspect emits right where the fracture occured.

Of course, I am very happy that no one was injured. It was a wake-up call. Something we can all learn from.

The LAST thing I want is to lose any of you to an avalanche.

and FWIW, when I was out there in Feb, I had nightmares about getting buried...just a subconscious reality check...not unlike the nightmares I had about being pinned underwater during the peak of my whitwater days...

 

[Skidog]

interesting text from that link:

Skiers who leave ski resorts to venture into the backcountry only occasionally are at greater risk of triggering avalanches as they are often not as versed at assessing backcountry snowpack conditions.

TOTAL generalization.

We all knew the report from the morning. We followed proper protocols, We skied what was to be considered "low" danger aspects. We ALL noticed the slab/windloading.

As Salida said digging a pit would not have helped in this situation. Since you've never been up there Sharon that ridge gets wind hammered. We'd have needed a pick axe to get through the hard crust under the wind load.

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

 

[Patrick]

Sharon's comments were definitely not what I would've liked hearing if something would have happened to me (true or not).

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

But I think I'm more troubled by this statement by Skidog.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually.

Troubling, but true.

Just wondering what wifey (with new baby) would say if she heard this.

 

[Skidog]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually.

Troubling, but true.

Just wondering what wifey (with new baby) would say if she heard this.

she was told......I dont keep these things from her.....wasnt "pleased" but didnt read me the riot act either thankfully.

M

 

[jamesdeluxe]

she was told......I dont keep these things from her.....wasnt "pleased" but didnt read me the riot act either thankfully.]

Is there fine print in life insurance policies that indemnifies the issuer if you're doing something like this or skydiving?

Sucks being an adult sometimes.

 

[Skidog]

she was told......I dont keep these things from her.....wasnt "pleased" but didnt read me the riot act either thankfully.]

Is there fine print in life insurance policies that indemnifies the issuer if you're doing something like this or skydiving?

Sucks being an adult sometimes.

Life insurance???? whats that?

No seriously...I should check that...but I dont know if BC skiing qualifies....who knows.

M

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Life insurance???? whats that?

LOL

When I returned from Austria (pre-kid) with stories and photos of sidecountry deepness, the wife had a new insurance policy waiting for me.

 

[Skidog]

Life insurance???? whats that?

LOL

When I returned from Austria (pre-kid) with stories and photos of sidecountry deepness, the wife had a new insurance policy waiting for me.

Well then id avoid any scuba diving trips with the wife in the immediate future...she might be trying to get rid of you??

M

 

[rfarren]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

If there was nothing that could've been done to prevent it, then what was the lesson learned? That skiing bc always carries risk?

Was there anything you could've done to prevent it?

 

[Patrick]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

If there was nothing that could've been done to prevent it, then what was the lesson learned? That skiing bc always carries risk?

Was there anything you could've done to prevent it?

That's more what I was thinking about.

 

[Skidog]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

If there was nothing that could've been done to prevent it, then what was the lesson learned? That skiing bc always carries risk?

Was there anything you could've done to prevent it?

Lesson learned = things you think wont slide, can and will....and YES skiing bc always carries a risk.

hmmm prevent....???? I dont think so...maybe not skied that line, but since we didnt think it would slide thats what was skied...

M

 

[Admin]

Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually. Thankfully noone was hurt and we all learned a lesson.

If there was nothing that could've been done to prevent it, then what was the lesson learned? That skiing bc always carries risk?

Was there anything you could've done to prevent it?

That's more what I was thinking about.

As I noted above, in retrospect Jon and I both concluded that about the only thing we would have done differently would have been to ski cut the top of that line. As Bobby traversed well right before dropping in he effectively ski cut the right side, but not the left. We could have/should have done that.

 

[Skidog]

As I noted above, in retrospect Jon and I both concluded that about the only thing we would have done differently would have been to ski cut the top of that line. As Bobby traversed well right before dropping in he effectively ski cut the right side, but not the left. We could have/should have done that.

Agreed......that is one thing we "couldve" done.

Lesson learned...thankfully noone was hurt...well...a pair of rental skis HA....good thing the $2 insurance was purchased....best $2 EVER spent!

M

 

[Marc_C]

A lot going back and forth here, as I knew it would. Combining several responses.

That day's avalanche advisory:
Although they didn't mention it, Marc, skidog, et al were all aware that the advisory mentioned "The avalanche danger is mostly LOW today with pockets of MODERATE for fresh wind slabs. You’ll find these mainly along the upper elevation north through east facing slopes." and "With the slight increase in wind, fresh drifts may be more widespread today. People with some backcountry experience should be able to recognize these if they are present. Slope cuts should be an effective tool to mitigate these." As Marc suggested, one mistake was not doing a more significant bit of ski cutting.

Pits:
While an important tool, the problem with pits is that it tells you the stability where you dig the pit, not the stability over there. Like Salida said, cross-loaded terrain is among the most difficult to assess and the situation where digging a pit yields little if any actionable information. The way it's handled is *exactly* how our crew here handled it - identify islands of safety, identify possible risk zones, one at a time, ski conservatively, everyone observes each skier, etc.

"Go into the BC something like this is bound to happen eventually."
Despite skidog's somewhat cavalier wording, this actually does happen here far more than folks from away think it does. From today's advisory (with my added emphasis):

People wandering around in the upper elevation windy terrain on Sunday not too surprisingly found some wind slabs that popped out. While many slopes got skied without incident, at least two people took rides in two separate slides, one in Birthday Bowl of the White Pine drainage and one off Little Water Peak in Mill Creek. These pockets didn’t pose a huge threat of burial but the potential of injury is always there with an uncontrolled ride. A handful of other observations included small wind slabs that would crack from the weight of a person.

Some posters here have jumped all over the "...occasional backcountry travelers..." quote in the White Pine caption. Those who have must also consider the Mill Creek caption before wagging their finger too aggressively:

The skier went for a 300-400 foot ride and was uninjured. Close calls like this can be a very valuable learning experience as long as they are just that and nothing more; a close call. After the incident, the victim was able to analyze events leading up to the incident and recognize factors that were overlooked and contributed to the slide.

Something else Marc et al didn't mention - the consistency of the snow. This was a light, soft snow slab that degenerated into powder, not the cinderblocks that grind you up.

I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of triggering and being in a slide, but all avalanches are different and there are many, many types, some less risky than others. I have a friend who's a spotter/assessor for the Colorado Avalanche Center and 3 years ago was caught and partially buried in a remarkably similar incident. He and his partners recognized the potential danger (and had assessed the slope as a red light), and set up a travel protocol to expressly deal with the likelihood of it sliding.

What I would like most for Marc and skidog to comment on are the suspected differences in line, style, aspect, degree of ski-cut, whatever that might have accounted for it releasing with the second person down.

 

[Skidog]

What I would like most for Marc and skidog to comment on are the suspected differences in line, style, aspect, degree of ski-cut, whatever that might have accounted for it releasing with the second person down.

the aspect, in hindsight, was certainly slightly more north facing. The line the first skier took was much further to skiers right in the "chute" itself. a ski cut was performed by this skier on his way in. No noticeable instabilities found however he did enter a bit higher and not on that portion of the slope the second skier took.

the second skier took a line much closer to skiers left on a more north facing side of the chute. this was obviously windloaded more than our group expected (we were all standing on it the entire time), as soon as he made his 2nd or 3rd turn and made his move into the chute it let go knocking him off his feet right away.

Ben did a GREAT job keeping cool and doing what is supposed to be done in this situation..SWIM!!!!

We all know that the # of skiers does not necessarily make the slope safer. The inbounds avie that killed that girl at snowbird earlier this year had TONS of traffic before the incident.

We will certainly all be more aware next time we enter the backcountry. We all learned something yesterday.

M

 

[Admin]

What I would like most for Marc and skidog to comment on are the suspected differences in line, style, aspect, degree of ski-cut, whatever that might have accounted for it releasing with the second person down.

As mentioned above (and possibly posted while you were crafting your thoughtful comments), Bobby was the first skier down and traversed to skier's right into the gully proper. That would not have experienced quite the same degree of windloading, albeit still minimal, as the line that Ben triggered had, although it would have been directly beneath it. Also, Bobby's traverse right skicut the gully, but not its skier's left shoulder that Ben had triggered. Our 20/20 hindsight was that we should have ski cut both.

 

[rfarren]

That is certainly scary! Way to stay alive guys! It's sorta of disconcerting to think that the only thing you could've done was ski cut the other side of the ridge. Thats just weird how BobbyD was able to ski the whole line... and then poof!

 

[Skidog]

Thats just weird how BobbyD was able to ski the whole line... and then poof!

He took a totally different line and his cut was above what slid on "different" wind loading.

It was weird for sure!

M

 

[berkshireskier]

Glad no one got hurt in that slide. I'm sure the hearts of everyone involved was pounding hard while it was happening. Vis a vis the life insurance policy question, I'm a financial planner who sells life insurance to individuals. On every life insurance application that I know of, there is a question asking if the insured engages in risky activities like scuba or skin diving, parachuting or "in other hazardous hobbies or avocations". Skiing is not specifically mentioned but if someone told me that they did backcountry skiing (or helicopter skiing) on a regular basis, I would put that down on the application. It's possible that listing this on the application would cause the premium to increase. If you did not list this activity at the time of the application and you were subsequently killed in an avalanche, it's possible that the insurance company could deny the claim (as long as the accident occured within two years of the application - life insurance policies have a two-year "incontestability" clause, meaning, after two years from the date of the application, an insurance company cannot deny a claim based on any falsehoods in the application). Most insurance companies do investigate the cause of any death within this two-year time period to determine if the claim needs to be paid.