Sugarloaf evolution

Kevin · Jun 1, 2003

My record for skiing crazyness in one day is: Feb 18th 1994: Sugarbush North Middlebury Snow Bowl Ski Bradford-Massachusets Hopefully I can meet you and some of the other people that post during next season and if there is a get together like at Burke last January. I will be taking a day trip to Orford next year from Sugarloaf, it sounds like a smaller version of the loaf, and its close by. By the way I know that the guy at Sugarloaf only really skis on Boardwalk and some blue trails, at 80 I dont think he skis the snowfields.

Max · Jun 1, 2003

Concerning the development of Orford, Frank, I think that the project is not dependent upon public money... The only reason the gov't is involved is that, the area being in a national parc, Intermont (owner of Orford) needs to swap land to proceed with creating a village at the base and adding a few runs. Whatever the gov't decides in that matter, in my opinion, the double chair on Mt. Orford will need to be replaced soon - I think they want to put a gondola. This should be a good thing, as Orford can get very cold when it's windy. It would also help people go up more quickly - it's amazing that such a big area still does not have a single high-speed lift. I do agree, however, that having a gondola and the triple operate simultaneously would overcharge the few non-gladed trails from the top. As for the # of ski-days this Winter, I have just completed by greatest season ever, with 84 days of ski (74 @ Sutton; 80 lift-served), all this while being a full-time student. I have also discovered a few areas I hadn't skied before such as Jay Peak, St-So, Mont Lac Vert and Valinouët. Of all these, Valinouët really is a must-see.

Frankontour · Jun 1, 2003

Hi Max ! Welcome to the discussion ! You had a great report for the Valinouet, in the early season ! Many people I know found it too flat, without real challenge, but I admit that powder and bumps should be incredible in that place ! Marc Guido said in his report of the mountain that even though all the east was on ice (2002), he didn't find any ice spot on the whole mountain. It's a place that I should try, as the #5,6,7,8 look to be quite interesting ! About Orford, If they put a gondola on the main side, it's bye bye all the nice trails and lines in this mountain, cause there will be 10x too much people on this side. They won't have choice to dynamite Contour and groom it after, they will build some blue and black trails in the actual glades of the side, to have more terrain for the amateur skiers which ski 3 times in a season. It's the same thing in every ski areas and sometimes, I think I would prefer Mt Orford to simply close than to see it become like Tremblant. Even actually, there is too much skiers in the normal trails of that mountain. 4km is too much narrow, Trois-Ruisseaux and Maxi are super crowded and la Grande Coulée is crowded even if it's often windblown in the large pitch. I don't care if they develop Mt Alfred Desrochers + le Pic du Lynx, but it would be too horrible, if they touch to the main peak (ouff, it was really emotional) Most of the people of Magog / Orford don't agree with the mega project of the mountain, cause they don't want to have another Tremblant. This last mountain is a big loss for us and it really su*** now that it's a white elephant without any charm. There is effectively the swap of lands with Intermont and the rights to cut some trees in the mountain (cause you know they even don't have the rights to cut a single tree without approbation, cause it's a National Park). But it's true that there is not necessary gov money into the project. I agree that they would have to change "la Mi-Orford" (that even stopped to run after the incident of late december) and Les Chaises du Ciel which have also near 40 years. How to change them ?. Actually, it's fun as it's often windy on the summit of Mt Orford, so the crowd stay in Mt Giroux and the conditions remain excellent, but if they put a gondola, all the people won't care for the weather and will take the gondola. Gondola could be good for a larger terrain like Ste-Anne or Tremblant, but not for a limited groomed terrain like Mt Orford and it's generally not for the kind of skiers which like the steep trails of the upper Orford Mountain. If you want to find some real skiers, put a single chair... you'll find them fast ! lol I don't talk of buying a single chair, but honestly, if they want to put a high speed quad, I hope they'll change the main quad which is slooow and often broken down. The best thing, to replace les Chaises du Ciel, would just be a brand new high-speed double chair, but I'm sure they won't think to that. It's really rare and only few ski areas have some of those chairs (I think Aspen, Alta (Utah), but not sure), but it would maintain the number of skiers on the Orford's side and it will be really faster to reach the summit, although the lift capacity won't be bigger than a fixed double. On mid-week, there is so few people on the mountain than they would be able to just operate it, without le Rapido. Congrats for your season (I think you're instructor or competer or so ? 74 times at Sutton, it's 15 times more often than mine in my whole ski life (I don't really like this resort). All that being student, I hope you live near the mountain, cause it should be tough to study if 3h of road by ski day !! (I know what I mean being full time too) Where did you hike & skied (the 4 times non-lift-serviced) ? This is really another thing than just skiing. Everyone is able to take a chairlift and just ski or board down, but it's always when you earn your runs that those ones are the very best ! Also when and where did you just finished your ski season ?? oh boy... this messages was really emotional. With all the projects of Mt Orford, I'm pretty nervous for my very best trails which are almost all on the top of the main side of Mt Orford.

Patrick · Jun 1, 2003

Wow, I can't keep up. Imagine if in the winter when some weeks the home computer doesn't even come on. Skiing statistics: 84 days Max, I am impressed. When I was a student I would ski November, not ski until Christmas, Jan-Feb-Mar, not ski April, and ski until Killington was closed in late May or June. Like Frank and Kevin, I don't ski at one place - my ski days are more scattered among ski areas. I don't have a clue how many days I skied in my life. I started skiing at 4 (in 1969-70), but only kept statistics since the 1981-82 season. Since that season, I have skiied 618 days (avr: 28.1/year) at 66 different ski areas. The top places are: 1 - Tremblant: 88 (14%) - 3 this year 2 - Chanteclerc: 47 (8%) - 0 3 - Killington: 44 (7%) - 0 4 - St-Sauveur: 37 (6%) - 0 5 - Gray Rocks: 30 (5%) - 0 6 - Gabriel: 27 (5%) - 0 7 - Whiteface: 26 (4%) - 2 8 - Jay Peak: 24 (4%) - 0 9 - Edelweiss: 21 (3%) - 9 this year (my 5yr old daughter had her first lessons there this year) 10 - Mt.Blanc: 19 (3%) - 0. 7 ski areas between 10 and 18 days. 20 areas between 5 and 9 days. 29 areas under 5 days. While on the Sugarloaf subject: having ski it 5 times (all since I moved to ottawa in jan.95) the ski area is tie in 29 place with Stoneham, Burke, Mt. Wash, Sugarbush, Val d'Isère, St-Côme, Cannon and Bromont (I skiied Bromont more than 5 times in my lifetime). BTW, Kevin - I don't know if you saw my list of favorite places, but Sugarloaf is one of the top 3. I think would like Ste.Anne, if you like Sugarloaf. Both have great steep cruisers. My wife thinks we are all crazy, keeping track of ski days statistics - imagine if I would keep track of vertical done like Tony (I think - sorry)? Kevin, thanks for the invite to Mt.Washington. I am not sure, I trying to go maybe next weekend. I don't know about Fathers' Day, my daughter might be dissapointed if I would go? However, that is no place I would never go alone, thus the maybe and not only weather related. Frank, skiing Northern Quebec: In 1981 there was Boréal ski area near the Radisson (LG2 hydro-quebec complex). 135m vert. Remember seeing it on a school day trip in 1980 (we took the plane from Dorval-James Bay) - no, it wasn't free. That would be the higher latitude lift-services skiing in Quebec (I don't have a map handy - look at a Globe to see where James Bay is!!!) Radisson was a small city of construction workers at the time. There was a guy in the geography faculty with me that went to the top of Quebec in the summer for field work. He said the skiing would be great, especially in the Torngat range - highest mountains in Quebec and serves of border with Newfoundland. He was a ski fanatic named Denis Bruneau, he would ski at LaReserve (80s).

Patrick · Jun 1, 2003

I forgot: coldest wind chill. Sunday Jan 17, 1982 at Smugglers' Notch. I remember me and my cousin took the MurrayHill bus from the old Sheraton Mt.Royal Hotel in downtown Montreal (cours Mt.Royal know) to Smuggs. The madonna chair was closed, and there was a blackboard near the Sterling lift which said something like 'extreme danger: -100F wind chill' (I am not joking - I wish I had a picture of the sign). I just remember that I would pull my tuque over my face and close my eyes going up. I could fell the wind blowing through me. I would ski one or two runs then go inside, much of the day. I knew it was doing to be a cold day, when the left Montreal at 6am - the temperature was -35c. Last year on March 20 at Marmot Basin (Alberta) there was a sign which said 'Temp: -31c, don't lick the chair' - I took a picture of that one.

Frankontour · Jun 1, 2003

"Don't lick the chair" !! lololol I'm not sure to have time to respond today to your message (I'll be really busy in the coming 3-4 days), but I will answer soon. I just want to say one thing about vertical. 2002-03 : 767 093 vertical feet of skiing (but I don't have an altimeter like one of my buddies (who gave me the idea to count that), so it's an estimation, but it's probably really close to that (±5%) oh-no no NO ±£@¤£¬±£¢@ shit, yesterday evening, they were forecasting SUN for today with few clouds, but now, it's 100% of rain all day long. Damn Meteo, never able to forecast something "a little bit right" for the next day. What a shame. I was surprised that it rained this morning, as I was preparing me for... la Réserve in june. shit... shit... shit... it was 0% of chance of rain, yesterday evening. 100% this morning. Same thing on both "Environnement Canada" and Meteomedia. They're really incompetent, it's incredible. looks like I will have more time to answer, probably... <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/sad.gif" ALT="

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Frankontour · Jun 1, 2003

Hmm finally, it's not impossible that I go... looks quite better in the north for today... especially this afternoon.

Kevin · Jun 1, 2003

Patrick: Just to let you know, the early weather forecast for next weekend shows rain for all of New England for at least saturday. It looks to be a race between when the weather will allow for skiing on Mt Washington, and how much snow will be left. I just want to try to get snow tubbing and Mt washington done in one weekend. What is your feeling on how Sugarloaf rates with the resorts that you have skied in New England?

Kevin · Jun 1, 2003

The forecast for Mt Washington is available at: www.weather.com Simply enter Mt Washington into the required city forecast box. Right now it looks ugly for next weekend(suprise?).

Max · Jun 1, 2003

I agree that with all development comes a risk of destroying good things, but I think that the fact of Orford being in a park should prevent the corp. from killing the existing terrain. I do not know why, however, they want to keep mi-orford and rapido even with a 6-people gondola in place. That would really be to much (±2X actual lift capacity). Maybe they should take off rapido, officially demolish mi-orford, and put a mid-station on their gondola at the place mi-orford stopped. As for the "village", I hope it's only condos - not a Disneyland. I don't want to see a Tremblant there! Anyway, I don't think that there's room for 2 upper-end resorts in the same market, so we should be ok. Concerning my ski season, let's just say that I managed my schedule to ski a lot: I had most Thursday afternoons and Fridays off. I must also say that my parents have a chalet at Sutton, and that it's just an hour away from my home. I'm also a ski instructor at Sutton. I had my 4 non-lift-serviced days at Sutton. It was my first time skiing off-season, though I'm used to hiking when some of the easternmost chairs are closed during early or late season. The 1st was 4 days after season-ending (April 21), and there was a foot of snow that had fallen during the week, resulting in 100% coverage. The 3 others were May 9-10 and 11. On May 9th, Dynamique was skiable near-top to near-bottom, with 6 interuptions in the snow cover (they were short, so I kept my skis on). The last 2 days, the headwall and the lower part were not skiable, though all was skiable in between (750feet vertical). From the place where coverage ended, it was possible to walk across the mountain to reach youppe-youppe, which was still well covered (3 interuptions) and that went almost to bottom. May 11th was my last day of skiing. I'm pretty sure there's nothing worth hiking for by now. Concerning the terrain at Sutton, visitors need to be aware that most challenging terrain is not marked. Beside upper Bou-Bou and Fantaisie, which are official, there are at least 10 other tight glades, most of them having a name recognized by local people - and are skied by patrollers!. Some are in between the trails (Alligator, Super-Miracle, Poma X, Le Six, Sous-bois Sélection A & B, Psycho Indien, Upper Sous-Bois Starlet, Ruisseau, Upper Mohawk) and some others are on the backside (Golley magique, Lame, Chemin-de-la-Croix, Escargot, Upper Fantaisie). There are also plenty of hike/ski on surrounding mountains, while starting from the ski area, such as the Round Top and Dos D'Orignal. I do think, however, the mountain would be nicer if vertical was longer and the mountain less crowded on week-ends. Still, I have a profound bond with this area, for I have skied it for 18 years now. This year was the first that I went to other ski areas "extensively" (not as much as you guys), and I now love discovering other places. -- BTW, Frank, I think we're gonna be working together sometime... I'm in accounting too, and though I'm just a summer intern for the moment, I might enter full-time in oct. 2004 for that firm auditing Tremblant... Glad to see I won't be the only ski-crazy person working there!

Patrick · Jun 1, 2003

Kevin, I did my top ski area list in the crazy Killington discussion of last week (140 messages). A bit in a reply to your question to Frank, about good places to ski in Qubec. In my discussion, I also mentioned the Ski magazine survey of 95 in which I deleted many criterias like apres-midi, dinning and kept the only the one I was interessed in (snow condition, value, challenge, terrain). Surprise, Tremblant is no longer #1, but Jay Peak!!! Jay was rated 12 place in the East, but if we counted what mattered to me, then it was #1 according to SKI magazine. Mind you, my top ski area list would probably change alot if I take into account my 5yr old daughter and trails that I would ski with her. About Mt.Washington. While it seems to be raining in Montreal, it has been nice and sunny here in Ottawa (the temp is a bit cool). I know, I have been looking at the extended forecast for a while know. I believe someone skied the snowfields until early July last year (look at the old report), but if I go, I need a partner to share a place to stay - cause skiing, hiking Mt.Washington and driving 7-8hr in one day is a bit too crazy for me. Most of all, I hope someone will post a report before then - this being the first weekend were the sun actually came out (at least here in Ottawa)! Max, I haven't ski Sutton much since I moved to Ottawa 8yr ago, however I noticed a trail that has a sign, but is not on the map. I can't remember it name, but it is off Alleganys(sp?) and seem to go on the backside. Where does this trail lead to, and How is it?

Max · Jun 1, 2003

Yes there is now a trail that goes from the Alleghanys (about from the level of top of chair 4West), down the backside, and back to the bottom of chair 1West. It's not on the map for liability reasons - they want to make this a "ski at your own risk / pay for your rescue" type of trail. They named that trail Fantaisie after the Warren Miller movie Fantasy, which - I think - featured Sutton a long, long time ago. The trail is a pretty tight glade, though not too steep. It ends in a long catwalk back to the resort. The return usually takes 5 minutes, though it can be 10 minutes when snow is sticky. Boarders don't go in Fantaisie cause they have to walk 20 minutes (haha). It's awesome on powder days and under early spring sun, when mainside trails have yet to unfreeze. The exposure is WestSouthWest, so snow melts rapidly once spring arrives. Factoring in Sutton's restrictive trail closing practices, though, it's usually still skiable one week after they close it (not two - I ended up walking back on the muddy catwalk this year!). Kevin - on your question concerning how we perceive Sugarloaf, though I've never skied it, I consider it to be a large, uncrowded mountain with nice terrain, so I do feel it would rank high on my scale (probably less so when thinking about the distance and the US$$$ - but has nothing to do with skiing itself). It's on my to-ski list.

Frankontour · Jun 2, 2003

I'm back !! (but just for a very short message, cause I'm really busy unfortunately. So back from la Réserve for my first ever ski day in june. See for details : <A HREF="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/16/2497.html?1054510285" TARGET="_top">http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/16/2497.html?1054510285</A> (I hope all the links will still reach the good page, after the merging of No-Bulls with Liftlines !!) About Sutton, I think I skied la Fantaisie last year 1 month after it closed (lol). In fact, I skied it on march 29. There was absolutely no tracks and the coverage was good on the trail, but thin on the come back (that took me 10 minutes). With the season we had in 2001-02, I even wonder if they'd opened it at all during the season ! The Super-Miracle (I used to call it "canyon" cause of the pass between rocks) is actually in my top best trails just behind the Upper Boubou. I don't know the other trails you mentioned, but I know there is certainly very good spots on the mountain. (I've found one glade between S-B 4B and Surprise last year. It looked good, but I had to exit from it unfortunately. Don't know how it was exactly. Some reasons why I don't like the place is cause of last march 29. After the big snowstorm week, I thought it would be super nice, but they only opened at 9h, even though it was easter friday and there was already a long line-up for the chairlift at 8h30. It was super crowded and they groomed every trails in the mountain except the upper part of "S-B 5", the upper Boubou and at least few trails off the 4 west chairlift. Every other trails were groomed. What a shame. At least, I got some fun in Boubou + Super-Miracle, (between Miracle and Attraction), cause without them, I would have skied la Fantaisie all day long ! Oh, you also work for K... , Max ! I will enter there at full time on jan 2004. Well, I would still have many things to say, but I just don't have the time now unfortunately, so I'm back tomorrow night, after a test tomorrow !!

Admin · Jun 2, 2003

Well, the merging won't happen today -- our web host has implemented some strange CGI output caching that needs to be removed before it can be done. As for Fantaisie, it's amazing. I skied it while closed in January and it was phenomenal. Long, beautifully pitched, and loaded with character, although it's quite a slog to get back.

Kevin · Jun 2, 2003

Patrick: I just spoke with a lady from the Mt Washington Auto Road, and she said that there is very little snow left in the snowfields, and not much left in Tuckermans Ravine. I don't know if it will be worth it in two weeks time but I will bring my skis with me if there is still snow left.

Kevin · Jun 2, 2003

I just read an article on the net that Saddleback is closing the resort until they can find new owners for the upcoming ski season. This was a fun alternative to Sugarloaf, but with horrible infastructure. Skiing this place was like skiing in a time warp from 1975. I'll miss the splinters in my butt from the t-bar if they dont reopen.

Patrick · Jun 2, 2003

Thanks for the info on Fantaisie at Sutton - I will definately try it next time I see it open. Max, I mentioned somewhere in the Killington discussion (140 messages) that there was a Canadian week at Sugarloaf. I believed the lift tickets were only $34 canadian. This special is generally the 3rd week of January (Monday-Friday). Trottier's also used to sell Sugarloaf lift tickets for something like $42 can. Last two season I either did a day trip from Montreal or left with a friend that lives in Bromont. Kevin, thanks for info on Mt.Washington. It's still up in the air if I go or not. Marc, you probably going to say "Please do tell this now", but I like the set-up of the discussion group this way, cause is not related to snow report, except for some Frank's stuff of course.

Admin · Jun 3, 2003

Patrick, I honestly think that it'll be for the best. One only has to look at two things: 1) The flood of No-Bull reports, and the dearth of Liftlines postings, and 2) The way that many No-Bull reports degenerate into other discussions. I'm optimistic that the changes will improve both situations.

Frankontour · Jun 3, 2003

testing (I lost my message trying to post it...) a first time

Frankontour · Jun 3, 2003

(hope this time, it will work) I'm back ! Well, I see that actually the ex-no bulls don't work, but this is a little bit normal with the change <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> Hmm, I have lots of topics to talk here ! About the ski days, You know, if I look the times where I did ski this winter, it's enough easy to see where were the big rushs in school. November : 2 times December 1-19 : 1 time December 20-31 : 5 times January : 5 times February : 3 times (and one of them on feb 28) March : 7 times April : 6 times May : 7 times June : 1 time Total : 37 (counting the Massif + June 1 at la Reserve) So : november was the hell, december too. February was impossible to ski (I've made 2 x 4h in the month, if I don't count the afternoon of feb 28 after my last mid-term test in the morning). In april, my final tests were so separated (april 23,29, may 2,5,6) that I got the chance to ski often, especially as I finished my courses on april 17. Oh, I didn't know there have been a ski area in Radisson. It's even northern than Mt Gallix near Sept-Îles. This is one It's not impossible that I go even with the distance, cause I born in Sept-Îles (and it's the first mountain I ever climbed, at 2 weeks old, in the front bag of my father <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> lol. This is actually one of the steepest mountains in Quebec. (at least, it looks like that on pics). (I really like the concept of the trail named : "La Suicide") About The Torngat range, this is quite far from here. 15h of road ? (oh no, it's true, there is no road to go there lol) I remember it's northern than Shefferville, which is already on the other side of the world. Anyway, I think those mountains are too much steep to keep the snow on them ? The higher point in QC, Mont d'Iberville is just a little bit less high than Mt Washington, I think, but it's just too far from all. For the people who live in this place, le Valinouet is damn south and near all the big cities ! lol About the cooooold, I remember when I went to MRG. At each 1-2 runs, I was obliged to change of scarf, cause it was a pack of ice. In fact, the main problem was that going down at full speed on Lower Antelope was something really warm (even at -30 (no wind on a tight trail like that). After the runs, our sweat was changing in ice in just few seconds, so it was a chance, I had 4 scarfs with me ! lol ! (at least, there was no waiting)

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