Sugarloaf evolution

The 1983 and 1995 type seasons are wondrous to behold, but not a fair indication of what is possible in normal or even above average seasons. If you look at the Main Lodge halfpipe pic, you'll see lots of people on the 3rd floor sundeck in the background. In May of 83 and 95 the snow was even with that deck. With blow-in there was probably 30 feet up top. Season snowfall was nearly 600 inches. <BR> <BR>It really is only possible to make 4th of July at Mammoth in about 30% of seasons. And in some of those you can only ski above the gondola midstation. <BR> <BR>Dave McCoy is the epitome of the "old school" type owner that readers of these pages would want running their home ski areas. I'm sure he analyzed the current trends of the ski industry and made the judgment that Intrawest was the class act of the big players and more likely than anyone else to perpetuate and improve upon his legacy. Only time will tell whether he was correct in this judgment, but look at Whistler/Blackcomb vs. other mega-resorts and who would you have picked in his position? <BR> <BR>Mt. Bachelor is going the other way under its new ownership, but I had heard several years ago that they were not making money despite their nearly 8-month season. I complained about it when gathering their data this year, but they are a victim of location: tiny local population base and Mt. Hood right in the backyard of their weekender market.
 
It's really weird, the behaviour of Intrawest in the West versus East. Here, the government of QC gave them nearly 1 000 000 000$ to develop a 4 seasons resort and to create jobs. They looked also to want to extend as long as possible the winter activities. They did it the first years, always closing in may, but after 1997, it was incredible to see them stop to make snow and close very early. It's certainly related with the big increase of the cost of snowmaking. <BR> <BR>With the new government, I think we can forget some decreases for 4 years, cause they just want to cut the expenses and maximise the revenues as most as possible. Many ski areas will close cause of them and they already closed the door for the Ste-Anne development. So I think we'll soon count our deads. (eh my, this discussion was originaly talking of Sugarloaf... we're up to Mammoth and Intrawest ! lol)
 
By the way, Duph can go "where I think", for the 5" of new snow at A-basin today ! What a season, for Summit county. July 4 begins to really looks possible ! <BR> <BR>Don't stop Matt !!!
 
The normal pattern at A-Basin is to play it by ear as the spring develops. The base depth never gets that high compared to Mammoth, but winter weather persists much longer with average snowfall of 54 inches in April and 33 in May. My guess is that A-Basin makes it to July about as often as Mammoth, about 1/3 of seasons. This season was uncharacteristic in that they got that Sierra-type 7-foot dump in March. Thus they announced shortly thereafter that they were going for 4th of July. <BR> <BR>I think the snowmaking issue is the big difference between eastern and western philosophy from mangement's viewpoint. Mammoth or A-Basin can look at their monthly staffing/operating cost in spring and match it up against expected revenue. Even if the result is slightly negative, those two areas in particular have "brand awareness" with the public associated with late closings and it's probably worth it for marketing reasons. Both areas draw a smattering of diehard spring skiers from other regions whose home areas have closed <BR> <BR>By contrast, an eastern area has to spend extra money up front and all season long to build the snowmaking base. So more spring skier visits are required to make it viable, despite the much inferior quality product in terms of variety of terrain and snow conditions. Only Killington has established that "brand awareness" back east, and I too would criticize them this year, as they do have a central location in the Northeast ski market and pretty much a monopoly after May 1. But we know that ASC has severe financial problems. <BR> <BR>Tremblant's local market is much smaller than Killington's and it has half the elevation and half the natural snow. I know it's a whole lot colder midwinter, but is that true in spring also? And how much business did they get in May when they were open?
 
There is not just Killigton. St-Sauveur really developped their market in the past and actually, they suffer a lot from the huge increase of snowmaking production, but they're used to close in the late may and they had probably more skiers than Killington up to their closure on may 11 this year (ok, weekends only). If only they could reduce the 3x more expensive than normal cost for the electricity for the ski areas, St-Sauveur will come back to try to open the ski area until the waterpark opens in early june. As soon as the snow price will be normal, West 70 will "kick the ass" of Superstar, cause Killington needs 3x more snow than West 70 to open in june and MSSI are in really good financial situation, compared to the poor ASC. <BR> <BR>They have the renowned mountain, they have the market, with over 3 millions people living at less than 1h from there (35 minutes from MTL) and they're in the late closure market for decades. They also have the history, as the first lift in the world have been built 3-4 miles away (Shawbridge) and the first fixed lift have been built in West 70 in 1934 (J-bar of Fred Pabst). It's one of the most popular ski area in the province (although just 700' high) and they have money and they want to continue to operate late in season. <BR> <BR>*I pray for they reduce the price of snowmaking*
 
Whoops, forgot Tremblant. <BR> <BR>They have been in the market for few years, but I think St-Sauveur was too big on the market to let a place to Tremblant. But the number of skiers really increased in the last years, in QC, with the incredible 2000-01 season. 2002-03 was the best in QC for over a decade. Tremblant could easily beat Killington on the north side, but forget about the south one. The south side (south west in fact) was about the worst place to put a ski area. The lower mountain woods are brown as soon as spring arrive and there is just snowmaking remaining in april for sure. The north side is completely different. The base is something like 400' higher than the south one and it's North east oriented, so the place keeps the snow pretty well. The upper part of the side closed in june, in 1997, on about 900' high on the trails which are now the snowpark. I think it's Patrick who said that the Lowell Thomas triple chair would be changed for a High-speed quad this summer. If it's true, they could try back to open in laaaaate season. I don't understand why the market would be less big than Killington. K is easy to reach in the New England, but it's really farther of the big cities than Tremblant from Montreal, which is 1h15 almost all on the highway. <BR> <BR>When they'll develop the north side base, they will probably open very late in the season, cause they have facilities at the base of north side. This is coming in the next 5-6 years, I think. (it's somehow sad, cause it was the only side still interesting to ski). <BR> <BR>But ok, for now, Killington is the best.
 
Hmm, I wonder why this afternoon, I was so much against "K". I suppose it's the long conversation that made me think to L.O.S.S. and that it should be beaten by another mountain to make them realize that their last seasons were quite short compared to the last decades ! <BR> <BR>Sorry for the Killington lovers... what they do remains great, cause on the hundreds and hundreds of ski areas in the east, no one is able to beat K anyway... so they do a great job, even though it's less incredible than the other years.
 
The problem with late skiing at Tremblant is that they do not have a marquis "spring trail" like Superstar. Which one could it be on the North side? Expo would be probably the closest thing. For those who doesn't know it, it is a tamer version of K's OuterLimits. But Tremblant never push the North side to close last (I know it might change with the propose changes). The resort base is centred by the South side. In the early 80s, when do try to rival small neighbouring Gray Rocks, then would push the Flying Mile (lower south) and only required one lift. <BR> <BR>Of course, since Intrawest (or just prior to), they added a top to bottom chair that was change in a Gondola. When and If Tremblant decides to push the closing date, it will be, IMO via the Gondola to reach the summit then ski the Upper North side via the new lift Lowell Thomas lift. Great Snowpark. <BR> <BR>MARKET: <BR>Tremblant is definately closer to larger population base than Killington, however... how far does Killington's local market extend to? Montreal (3.5 million @ 1h30) and Ottawa (1m @ 2h). 4.5 million within 100 miles. <BR>The large metropolitain areas of the East might not be really close, however Killington is only 3-4hr from Boston, Hartford, New York, Albany and ... Montreal. Killington doesn't have the competition in May, that Tremblant could potentially have from St-Sauveur which is only 30minutes from Montreal. Like the thorn in it's side that GrayRocks and St-Sauveur was in the early 80s.
 
hmm, I didn't know there was a road to fastly pass from Ottawa to Tremblant ? Ok... I imagine the road 323. <BR> <BR>About Tremblant, effectively, they run the gondola all year-long, so the Ropetow/Rigodon combo trail of north side would be the Superstar of Tremblant. I remember have seen a depth of near 25' high on top of Ropetow in april 98 or 99. If they push some snow everywhere on that run, it could close extremely late. If they want to keep their snowpark, there is also the neighbour, Upper Beauchemin that could be "the" trail. <BR> <BR>Anyway, I even don't know if I would ski there, if they closed late. Surely after the end of L-G and St-Sauveur, but before ?? They would have a huge job to do to convince the skiers to go, cause the price of St-Sauveur for students is just 10$ after april 1. Tremblant could never get close to that and the upper north side trails are less interesting than West 70 + Nordic, in my opinion.
 
I don't think Tremblant is willing to push closure - partly become St-Sauveur. Frank, you proved my point. <BR>The Tremblant trail would be better for the average skier - not the expert only of Superstar (which is bad or good depending on your point of view). Upper Northside Expert run at Tremblant are too far from that LT lift.
 
The upper north trails of Tremblant are boring, if not a snowpark. They're good for the intermediate skiers, but not more. You don't have a good pitch like the lower one of "Nordique" at St-Sauveur, for the advanced skiers. This is just little terrain and the good skiers would become bored enough fast, although in may, skiing on an intermediate is 10000000x more interesting than during winter. (Middle LG proved me it... although the Upper LG is near 50 degrees steep, so the run remains interesting in winter). <BR> <BR>And effectively, there is a possible way to go from Duncan (+ the trio of narrow ones) down to the bottom of Lowell Thomas, but there is some walking. No, I think we can forget about Tremblant, for interesting skiing so late. The best place, if they had market + marketing + snowmaking +(just forget it now, OK) would be the "Principale" at Alta, but forget this for at least 1 decade ! This is already the best moguls trails in the Laurentians / Lanaudiere, IMO. The place is the best to keep the snow near Montreal and the location and kind of trail is just perfect. <BR> <BR>One day...
 
The problem with the old t-bar lines is that there wouldn't be much snow left in May (no snowmaking). The walk from Duncan would be long (I can't imagine them making a snowlink to reach the bottom of the lift). <BR>The Duncan would not be feasible.
 
Winter 1999-2000 : bad snow year <BR>April 24, 2000, the 3 "old t-bar lines" (I've only seen "Banzai" as a t-bar line) were open and in great shape. (ok, they got a big storm in early april that year). <BR> <BR>For Duncan, no, this is effectively too far from the chairlift. But I suppose one day, they will cut the trees between MCA and Banzai to make a wide advanced trail that could reach the Lowell Thomas "new" chair. Actually, they're not really popular and as they always groom them, they're not a big worth even for a skier like me who likes the narrow trails. (they were so nice, all bumped in the early 90s). The "Tunnel" could come back to a mogul trail, cause anyway, this is not popular at all, cause the enough long walk needed. Let bumps on it and there will be skiers to do it !
 
NNNNNOOOOO!!!! <BR>Sorry, I loves those trails. What we don't need are widenning more trails at Tremblant. <BR> <BR>This spring, including the last week of T, I skiied those three runs more than usual. As long as I can remember Tunnel has always been there even if it wasn't on a trail map. It was the old rope-tow line. A long time ago (before my time), before the two t-bars, the upper north side had two short rope-tows. One on Tunnel, the other on Rope-Tow. <BR> <BR>The fact it is not popular is because people don't want to push. And that is fine with me, because Tunnel is great away from the crowds. <BR> <BR>I like the two t-bar lines, because as a kid you surely didn't want to fall off the t-bar that kept lifting you off the ground (it was the only way back to the south side). Probably the most stressful lift when I was a kid. <BR> <BR>If Tremblant add a new lift there instead of where the current triple is, they would've massacre two parts of the upper northside. The Lowell-Thomas was a great narrow trail is the 70s. Rope-Tow and most other trails around it didn't exist.
 
Don't really know for the Lowell Thomas trail, but the "Rope Tow" was a really great one until the early 90s. It changed a lot when Intrawest arrived. About MCA and Banzai, if a single skier love them, it would be a bad decision to cut the trees between them ! (Now I understand why there is 1-2 passes from Lowell Thomas to the bottom of Tunnel, Banzai and MCA) (if it was the only way to get back on the top, cause those passes don't have a meaning, today ! <BR> <BR>Hey, I didn't know that page before today (on the Skivt website) It's enough incredible, you have the trail map of every ski area in Vermont, in 1963. (+ few other maps) (including many of stowe, Killington, Jay, Smuggs, etc.) <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.uvm.edu/skivtl/Page=&dir=./vault/Historic_Trail_Maps" TARGET="_top">http://www.uvm.edu/skivtl/Page=&dir=./vault/Historic_Trail_Maps</A>
 
Hmm, the link doesn't work, so take this direction <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/" TARGET="_top">http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/</A> <BR> <BR>Click on <BR> <BR>Vermont ski history Vault : Movie, photos, maps <BR> <BR>and click on <BR> <BR>Vermont ski trail maps circa 1963 <BR> <BR>A big thanks to Wesley !
 
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