Vermont Snow Updates 2008-09

[J.Spin]

On Sunday I headed to Stowe for some turns with the boys, and since we had some vouchers to burn off, my mom, my friend Weston, and his daughter Madeline also joined us. We hit the hill around 9:30 A.M. and the snow was already corn except for places in the higher elevations that were still in the shade. The forecast had come through as expected, so skies were clear and temperatures were in the 40s and 50s F. There didn’t even seem to be any wind atop the quad, so it was an excellent day for the kids in that regard. On the snow front however, the two younger skiers (Dylan and Madeline) seemed to get worn out more easily by the soft snow. With such long runs down from the quad, we called it a day for them after two circuits. We focused on Toll Road and the surrounding blue trails, and coverage was excellent. It was definitely a long route for Dylan, and he was ready to be done after the first run, so we all took a long snack break at the Octagon up top. As seems typical for this time of year at Stowe with reduced terrain options, the main intermediate routes felt very crowded, but fortunately Toll Road was essentially vacant and worked well for the kids. It was amazing to see that the Mt. Mansfield parking lot essentially filled up toward the afternoon, so there was clearly no deficiency of people looking to ski. The fact that it was a canned food day probably played into the number of skiers as well. I think we even managed to see part of the SkiVT-L party crew somewhere in the Ridge View/Sunrise area. After our second run we had lunch at the Mansfield Base Lodge, then packed up the skis and went across to the new Spruce Peak base area since Weston and my mom had yet to see it. The base lodge appeared to be closed, but the Stowe Mountain Lodge was open and we took a quick tour through there. Since the day had ended early we stopped in at Ben and Jerry’s on the way home and had a round of ice cream. It sounds like the mountains will experience a return to winter tonight and tomorrow, with potentially another round of spring powder. The snow levels look to be rather high though, so we’ll have to see how it plays out.

I’ve just got one image from Sunday, the classic shot of the alpine area around the Chin:

J.Spin

 

[J.Spin]

At around 6:00 A.M. this morning the temperature was 41 F at the house (495') and looking out at the local mountains I couldn't see any obvious snow line up to around 1,500'. With the valley temperature and the visual observations, the snow line was obviously pretty high, but I had my ski gear ready so I stopped off up at Bolton Valley to check things out on the way in to Burlington. Rain showers in the valley increased to a more light to moderate rain as I ascended the access road. First signs of any old snow on the ground weren't until around the Timberline Base area (~1,500') and in terms of precipitation, snow began to mix in with the rain at around 1,700'. Up at the village (2,100') the precipitation was fully over to snow of light to moderate intensity, but the temperature was still 36 F and it wasn't accumulating. It was hard to tell with the cloud deck, but it looked like things were probably getting white up near 3,000'. In terms of snowpack, down at Timberline there's mostly open ground with some leftover snow, but up at the main area there's mostly snow on the lower mountain trails with some bare areas. I didn't make any turns since there didn't appear to be anything too spectacular with regard to new snow in the 2,000' - 3,000' range, so I just continued on my way in to Burlington. Part of Camel's Hump appeared out of the clouds and there is certainly some new snow up high, but it looks to be generally in the 3,000'+ range. Based on Scott Braaten’s report to SkiVT-L, it sounds like the Northern Green Mountains picked up just a coating of new snow in the higher elevations. Mt. Washington has picked up a decent shot of snow from this event however, with 7.3” as of this morning’s early report around 6:00 A.M., and the avalanche report indicated 9.5” as of 7:00 A.M..

J.Spin

 

[J.Spin]

I didn't get out yesterday, but Powderfreak managed to get up high enough on Mt. Mansfield to enjoy some of the new snow and he sent in his report to SkiVT-L. Based on some of his shots, it certainly looks like there were some decent turns up there, and apparently they picked up a fair amount of snow because the stake report in the evening came in with 7 inches new. Mt. Washington picked up 13.8 inches from the event as well. In terms of powder, yesterday and today (morning) would have been the two days to get at it because it will be very warm at all elevations this weekend. Even though the powder skiing was relatively short lived, the storm should provide another good boost to the spring snowpack in the higher elevations with the snowfall dropping 1.47 and 2.06 inches of liquid equivalent on Mt. Mansfield and Mt. Washington respectively.

-J

 

[J.Spin]

The boys were more interested in planting flowers with Mom on Saturday than skiing, so unfortunately I couldn’t interest them in going out for some turns. This meant that I was on a solo outing, but the upside was that I’d be able to do a much bigger tour than I would have been able to with Ty, or especially with Dylan. The skies were clear and blue all Saturday morning on what was likely our warmest day of the spring up to that point. The temperature was already around 80 F when I pulled into Stowe’s Midway lot (~1,700’) in the early afternoon, and with the forecast for temperatures in that range, I hadn’t been too optimistic about the snow quality. My major goal was to at least get in a good workout, so I was willing to negotiate some sloppy snow on the descent if that was the way it had to be.

Snow was available right from the Midway Lodge elevation, with just a couple hundred feet of fairly flat walking on grass to get on it from the parking lot. I was immediately surprised when I got on the snow and found that it wasn’t sloppy at all; it was all corn with just the top inch or so loosened up. That’s the sort of corn that seems to provide some of the easiest turns, so I was immediately enthusiastic about the potential for a quality descent. There wasn’t much of a breeze in the lower elevations, but the snow helped keep the air temperature a bit cooler and the ascent was very enjoyable. For ascent attire I’d gone about as minimally as I felt comfortable doing, with a short sleeve polypropylene T-shirt and my ski pants with the side zippers fully open, and that worked out to be a comfortable setup for the temperature. I hadn’t made a non-powder ascent on skins in a while, and I was quickly reminded how the lightness of Telemark gear allows you to simply fly up the slopes. Before I knew it I was up at the Cliff House (3,625’) and feeling great, so I decided to keep going up into the alpine.

I set my skis onto my pack and hit the climbing gully. There was a bit of rotten snow in spots, and as I didn’t immediately find a boot ladder, I had visions of an inefficient, sloppy climb with lots of post-holing. I’d already post-holed a few times in the outskirts of the gully (it only took one of those to remind me to get my ski pants zipped up at least halfway) but fortunately, about 50 feet up the climbing gully I found a boot ladder made by some nice big feet. That made the going fairly smooth, and the views of the Green and White Mountains continued to improve with each step. Near the top of the gully, I ran into a guy about to descend. He had spent an overnight or two on the mountain, and said that he’d been amazed to find fresh powder on Friday morning when he’d started skiing. It sounds like along with Thursday morning, Friday morning had also been good in the higher elevations with regard to fresh snow. The downside of the fresh snow was that conditions in the alpine were still a bit sloppy. The new snow had not yet cycled to corn in the highest elevations, so it just wasn’t going to provide an optimal surface. By the time I departed from my conversation in the gully, I was moments from the Mansfield ridge line. Up on the ridge I enjoyed the new westerly views of the Champlain Valley and Adirondacks, and decided to stop in at the top of the Chin (4,395’) since I was so close. There was a small group of college students enjoying the popular leeward side of the summit, and there was a pleasant breeze of probably 15 MPH or so. The high temperature for the day at the Mt. Mansfield stake came in at 67 F, so I suspect that the summit maximum temperature was probably close to that. Getting an April day like that at the top of the Chin is certainly a treat.

For my descent, I wasn’t able to ski right in the summit or the West Chin area due to lack of snow, but I was able to ski down the gully where the Long Trail drops away from the Chin as it heads south. It was quite a perspective to see the snow create a flat surface through the gully, when in the off season it’s a 10-foot deep chasm containing the hiking trail. I had to remove my skis to descend the very top of the climbing gully, but below that point one could keep them on continuously. As expected, the new snow up high that hadn’t fully cycled to corn wasn’t as nice as the corn snow on the bottom 2,000’, but I actually had some fun turns in the climbing gully, and it let me work on Telemark turns in steeper, tighter confines. I still had to make some alpine turns and throw in some side slipping up there since some areas were just so tight, but overall the gully allowed a good mix of styles. The crème de la crème of snow surfaces for the day was probably the top half of the Gondolier descent. There must have been very little traffic up there because most of the snow surface was just a smooth layer of ripe corn. The lower half of Gondolier still had nice corn snow, but the surface wasn’t as smooth as the top half of trail. Perhaps the lower elevations had experienced more melting that started forming aberrations in the surface. Based on my GPS data, it looks like my descent was 2,720’, not quite what you can get for vertical in the winter when you head all the way back down to Route 108, but still a decent run. There were still about 7 feet of snow at the stake on Saturday, and even though that level has dropped some with the recent warmth we’ve had, skiing should available on Mt. Mansfield for a while.

J.Spin

 

[Tony Crocker]

I was immediately surprised when I got on the snow and found that it wasn’t sloppy at all; it was all corn with just the top inch or so loosened up.

Perhaps JSpin and I do not differ so much in our definitions of corn. :wink: I'm somewhat surprised that it was still good 2-3 hours later on the descent on such a warm day. But no question lack of skier traffic helps the corn last longer.

 

[J.Spin]

Perhaps JSpin and I do not differ so much in our definitions of corn. :wink: I'm somewhat surprised that it was still good 2-3 hours later on the descent on such a warm day. But no question lack of skier traffic helps the corn last longer.

I was surprised that the corn snow was ever good that day, since I didn't even start my ascent until after noon and it was already 80 F. I'm not sure if dry air helps out with corn snow like it does in preserving some other types of snow, but that was a dry day, so perhaps combined with very few skiers it helped to keep the snow in a state that was optimal for skiing.

-J

 

[icelanticskier]

cuz it's snowmaking snow. more often than not, back east the corn skiing is good at resorts and bc without even overnight refreeze. maritime snowpack and snowmaking=good for all day corn.

rog

 

[Tony Crocker]

Dry air (and wind) can help a lot; more of the surface snow sublimates instead of melting. A tightly packed base from grooming/snowmaking helps too. I remain somewhat skeptical of the snowmaking surface; by my observation at Big Bear/Mt. High old manmade is usually fairly heavy and takes some effort to push around. Mansfield did have a bit of natural snow after the ski area closed, which might have helped the surface be so good.

 

[Geoff]

Dry air (and wind) can help a lot; more of the surface snow sublimates instead of melting. A tightly packed base from grooming/snowmaking helps too. I remain somewhat skeptical of the snowmaking surface; by my observation at Big Bear/Mt. High old manmade is usually fairly heavy and takes some effort to push around. Mansfield did have a bit of natural snow after the ski area closed, which might have helped the surface be so good.

The conditions I tend to see at KMart on the higher traffic terrain that's been groomed within the last week is an impervious ice base bottom layer with corn snow on top. Just like midwinter, you read the surface and ski on the white mushy stuff and avoid the darker colored base. With wide shaped skis, you don't "push it around". You roll the ski up on edge and make it do all the work for you. If you can't carve your turns, you're pretty much stuck skiing the dark impervious ice base path or just skiing from first chair until it starts getting mushy. It's really not all that different from skiing cut-up powder (the higher density kind, not that Utard low moisture content kind).

On closed east-facing terrain like Outer Limits, the corn mush is so soft that you ski it like you're skiing powder. You can aim right at the bumps and they vaporize as you hit them like Moses parting the Red Sea. I've hit that same condition May skiing on Granite Chief at Squaw. Of course, you also get the runs where it really didn't soften and you're clawing your way down wondering why you wasted your time on relocating a car in the morning, navigating the ribbon to get over there, hacking your way down, walking the length of the gated parking lot, and driving the 10 minutes back to the cooler of beer and BBQ grill.

I love skiing mush at this time of year so I rarely show up early. I usually grab a premier parking spot from one of the first chair/hates mush people who ski the first hour or two and leave.

 

[Tony Crocker]

corn mush

I view these two words as nearly mutually exclusive.

on the higher traffic terrain that's been groomed within the last week

With high traffic the snow will be pushed into mushy clumps during the softening process. In order to get a consistent corn surface skier traffic needs to be low during the temperature transition. Hit a run that's been used for race training in the morning as soon as they drop the rope and you'll see the difference. The corn ripened nicely on those Stowe gondola runs JSpin skinned because there was minimal skier traffic.

It's really not all that different from skiing cut-up powder (the higher density kind)

Which is also much more work than smooth corn. And which also requires some pitch so you don't bog down. Flat runs are a real PITA once the snow gets to the mushy stage. It doesn't matter how you're skiing; there's always apprehension that your skis will "stick" and you feel like you're going over the handlebars. This is why a mid-morning resalting of Mammoth's groomers is welcome on the hottest days. The lower parts of those Stowe gondola runs started to "stick" by noon when I was there 3/16/2003.

On closed east-facing terrain like Outer Limits, the corn mush is so soft that you ski it like you're skiing powder. You can aim right at the bumps and they vaporize as you hit them like Moses parting the Red Sea. I've hit that same condition May skiing on Granite Chief at Squaw.

Agreed. On steep bumpy runs the snow doesn't need to be "ripe corn" to be fun. Gravity overcomes the resistance of the heavy snow so you can blast right through it. That's why the busy Mammoth runs up top are good to the bitter end, even if it's July.

 

[J.Spin]

cuz it's snowmaking snow. more often than not, back east the corn skiing is good at resorts and bc without even overnight refreeze. maritime snowpack and snowmaking=good for all day corn.

After living/skiing in both Vermont and Montana for a number of years, I’ve found that it’s easier to get quality corn snow in the spring in the Northeast than it is in Montana. This appears to be the case to varying degrees throughout the Northern Rockies. In fact, as I’ve mentioned before, many people in Montana take the month of April off from skiing because the snow is often not all that great, then they pick things up again at some point in May. From my own experience of skiing numerous sticky, mushy days in both the frontcountry and backcountry in April in Montana, I can understand why. When living there I was always told that spring was the wettest period in the Northern Rockies, and I guess that during that part of the season new snow comes in frequently enough that it doesn’t have time to cycle to corn. Since the sun is out and temperatures are warm in the spring in between storms, you gut mush.

With regard to the snowpack on the Northeastern U.S., it sounds like there could be places on the East Coast that might have a maritime type of snowpack, but for places in the interior like the Green Mountains, we rarely seem to get the type of dense snow that can fall in the Sierra, Cascades, B.C. coast, etc., places that are more known for that maritime influence. We’re really upwind of the ocean here, so aside from the occasional Nor’easter, I’m not sure how much direct influence we actually get from the ocean in terms of our snowfall. Much of our snow comes from the west, which would make it a lot more continental than maritime. Even in nor’easters, we don’t get the dense snow that one associates with the maritime snowpack of the places I mentioned above, so I was very curious about why some people called our snowpack maritime and asked the question on SkiVT-L. The question initiated a thread on the subject, and it looks like here in Vermont the snowpack is “temperate continental” according to the experts (or at least the one expert that was mentioned in the thread). I’m no snowpack expert, but that name seems to describe the type of snowpack and snowfall we get here much better than maritime. Presumably the more temperate nature of the climate (along with snowmaking) is better for building corn than what goes on in the Northern Rockies, which is probably closer to “continental” or “cold continental” with regard to snowpack.

-J

 

[Patrick]

It doesn't matter how you're skiing; there's always apprehension that your skis will "stick" and you feel like you're going over the handlebars. This is why a mid-morning resalting of Mammoth's groomers is welcome on the hottest days. The lower parts of those Stowe gondola runs started to "stick" by noon when I was there 3/16/2003.

East and West / Artificial and Natural. Sorry Tony were had this debate before, but your definition doesn't really fit the actual situation in the East this time of week. Your skis will not "stick" in the East/artficial base the way it does on Natural surfaces.

 

[Geoff]

It doesn't matter how you're skiing; there's always apprehension that your skis will "stick" and you feel like you're going over the handlebars. This is why a mid-morning resalting of Mammoth's groomers is welcome on the hottest days. The lower parts of those Stowe gondola runs started to "stick" by noon when I was there 3/16/2003.

East and West / Artificial and Natural. Sorry Tony were had this debate before, but your definition doesn't really fit the actual situation in the East this time of week. Your skis will not "stick" in the East/artficial base the way it does on Natural surfaces.

This really isn't a debate. Tony has never experienced the condition and somehow insists it isn't possible. You get "stick" from the water layer on melting fresh snow. Once you get large crystal corn snow, you don't get the same kind of suction effect. If you're strong enough and carve your turns, you just power through it like you're skiing cut-up powder. I basically ski all winter to get my legs strong enough to be able to handle eastern spring conditions. Other than the odd powder day, mid-March through when the lifts stop spinning is by far the most reliable surface in the east. That's why I settled at Killington. Spring skiing was always mid-March through Memorial Day.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Tony has never experienced the condition

I mentioned the limited amount of sticky snow on the lower gondola runs at Stowe 3/16/03. I didn't hang around once it got that way because the snow on the north facing Forerunner runs was good all afternoon. There was also 4/29/90 at Killington. The bump skiing on Superstar was great, the groomed skiing was awful, consistently sticky.

I basically ski all winter to get my legs strong enough to be able to handle eastern spring conditions.

This is the kind of statement that makes me suspicious of "eastern corn." Ripe corn requires less strength/effort than any other snow surface IMHO. Easier than freshly groomed packed powder corduroy.

You get "stick" from the water layer on melting fresh snow.

Water layer on any snow IMHO. It happens faster if it doesn't freeze overnight. And it drains better from steep runs, thus worse on the flats.

JSpin's description of the Northern Rockies is similar to what we hear from the Utards, except the latter get more powder days out of the spring since LCC storms are usually bigger. In both cases the greater frequency of refresher storms impede corn formation.

Your skis will not "stick" in the East/artificial base the way it does on Natural surfaces.

I don't think whether the base is natural or man-made matters. It matters whether it is packed/consolidated. Manmade snow is always packed. But grooming is also packing. Thus I was skiing corn on a south-facing groomer 24 hours after I was skiing powder at Mammoth 4/11-12. The ungroomed south facing was not there yet since 1-2 days is not enough time for natural snow to consolidate. But a week later Snowman reported corn all over the sunny off-piste. Icelantic and the other eastern backcountry types don't seem to think artificial snow necessarily produces better corn.

The "stick" comes from the water layer, as Geoff said, which can form easily on any flattish snow surface with sustained heat.

I will admit to not skiing "ripe corn" in my limited eastern experience. The snow being usually packed would be a positive for its formation, while inconsistent overnight freezing and high skier traffic would be negatives. I'm sure the more dedicated easterners like JSpin are pretty good at finding the right places with less skier traffic.

I suspect my views on corn snow are like MarcC's on powder. When you experience the optimal condition with some frequency, you're more likely to notice when it's not quite as good and thus draw a distinction.

 

[Tony Crocker]

With regard to the snowpack on the Northeastern U.S., it sounds like there could be places on the East Coast that might have a maritime type of snowpack, but for places in the interior like the Green Mountains, we rarely seem to get the type of dense snow that can fall in the Sierra, Cascades, B.C. coast, etc., places that are more known for that maritime influence. We’re really upwind of the ocean here, so aside from the occasional Nor’easter, I’m not sure how much direct influence we actually get from the ocean in terms of our snowfall. Much of our snow comes from the west, which would make it a lot more continental than maritime. Even in nor’easters, we don’t get the dense snow that one associates with the maritime snowpack of the places I mentioned above, so I was very curious about why some people called our snowpack maritime and asked the question on SkiVT-L. The question initiated a thread on the subject, and it looks like here in Vermont the snowpack is “temperate continental” according to the experts (or at least the one expert that was mentioned in the thread). I’m no snowpack expert, but that name seems to describe the type of snowpack and snowfall we get here much better than maritime. Presumably the more temperate nature of the climate (along with snowmaking) is better for building corn than what goes on in the Northern Rockies, which is probably closer to “continental” or “cold continental” with regard to snowpack.

The definitions of coastal, intermountain and continental snowpacks are defined in this article, which would not surprise me if JSpin has not already read:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520- ... 0-2367.pdf

The article is written from the perspective of avalanche research. The decision making for classification is set up accordingly (flow chart on p. 9). The very first decision classifies a site as "coastal" if it gets more than 8cm of rain during the winter. That would apply to the entire Northeast ski region, but I would agree with JSpin that while that's a valid criteria for rating snow stability and a reasonable classification for the West, it's not quite so simple in the East.

The rain issue (combined with mixed precipitation events) contaminates eastern data when measuring water content. At western sites with negligible rain, water content measurements reflect exactly what we observe skiing fresh snow. 22 seasons of Mammoth snowfall average 12.9% water. 16 seasons at Snowbird average 8.3%. All the intermountain sites range from 8-10% water and the continental sites are 6-8% water.

why some people called our snowpack maritime

When you look at eastern water/snow ratios from Mt. Mansfield and Mt. Washington you get numbers like 15-17% water because of the rain and mixed storms. The Gulf of Mexico is the usual source of those rain and mixed storms, and those would certainly be defined as maritime/coastal in anybody's book.

But as with many stats, averages do not tell the whole story. For the 88 winter months at Mammoth with 12.9% average water, the distribution looks normal: 60% of those months are between 10.4% and 14.6%. JSpin and others will surely tell us it doesn't work that way in Vermont. The Vermont distribution curve of water content (by storm if not by month) is probably lumpy, with one peak near the average for the west-to-east and lake effect weather (likely less than 10%) and another peak up at 20+% for the Gulf of Mexico sourced storms.

 

[J.Spin]

2008-2009 Winter Weather Summary – Waterbury, Vermont

I’ve completed my ‘08-‘09 winter weather summary page for our location in Waterbury. The page includes the usual assortment of snowfall and snowpack data plots, as well as a table chronologically listing the 46 accumulating snowfall events that affected our location. The table contains links to the text observations and comments recorded for each of the events, plus links to any relevant sets of images (from the valley and/or up in the mountains) associated with the event.

In terms of the local/lower elevation backcountry skiing this season, I’d say it was decent, but certainly not as good as last season. I think the number of snow depth days recorded at our 495’ stake this past winter (1,877) relative to the winter of ’07-08 (2,518) is certainly in line with the perceived drop in lower-elevation ski conditions. This season represents an ~25% drop in snow depth days from last, but unfortunately I have no idea how either compares to average since I’ve only got snow stake data for those two seasons. As it turns out, I only got out for one day in the back yard backcountry this season, partly due to the way timing worked out with access to good lift-served skiing conditions and powder.

The 2008-2009 weather summary page can be accessed at:

http://www.JandEproductions.com/2009/0809weather.html

I’ve also included some of the data plots and a quick summary of some of the data below; the numbers in parentheses are values from the ’07-’08 winter season for comparison.

Number of snowfall events: 46 (53)
Total snowfall: 179.4 inches (203.2 inches)
Snow depth days: 1,877 (2,518)
First frozen precipitation observed: 10/22/08 (10/28/07)
First snowfall observed: 10/22/08 (11/07/07)
Date of first measurable snowfall: 10/28/08 (11/16/07)
Date of last measurable snowfall: 4/08/09 (4/14/08)
Duration of measurable snowfall season: 163 days (150 days)
Greatest snowpack depth: 33 inches (34 inches)
Largest snowfall event: 18.2 inches (19.2 inches)
Last day with snowpack at the stake: 3/27/09 (4/10/08)
Last day with snowpack in the yard: 4/05/09 (4/20/08)
Last day with snowpack in the neighborhood: 4/21/09 (4/26/08)
Coldest temperature: -25.1 F (-16.6 F)

J.Spin

 

[Tony Crocker]

The above summary from JSpin should close this topic. It's been a very informative thread and we all look forward to a new one for 2009-10. The telemark equipment posts are worthy of ongoing discussion but are now in the equipment section: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8123