Vermont Snow Updates 2008-09

Last weekend’s storm quickly produced a decent powder day on Sunday, but this week’s midweek storm was a more drawn out affair. I was hearing reports of snow in the Green Mountains as early as Monday, but it wasn’t until Tuesday that it really seemed to start accumulating, and Wednesday before the first morning with fresh powder. With Bolton Valley no longer making snow reports, I had to go with Stowe’s snow report to get an idea of what had gone on up in the mountains. So when Stowe’s Wednesday morning report finally came in and they were indicating 5 inches up high, I expected Bolton would follow suit. I was quickly on my way up the access road for some turns.

The snow line with this storm was actually pretty low, we were even getting snow down in the valleys, but there just wasn’t much snowfall intensity for any notable accumulations in the lower elevations. Unlike the previous couple of storms, where there had been a dramatic low-elevation snow line and snow accumulations seemed to rapidly increase as soon as you hit that point, the snow depths with this storm increased very slowly with elevation. By the time I got up to the Bolton Valley Village (2,100’) there was only an inch or two of new snow. However, if this storm turned out to be drier in general than the previous couple, one upside (depending on whether your preference at this point in the season is for skiing fluff or building base) was that its snow was much drier as well. As soon as I got out of my car and checked the consistency of snow in the base area, I realized that it had an almost mid winter density of roughly 6 to 8% H2O. Between receiving snowfall comprised of needles and contributions of warmer spring temperatures, the powder from our March 31st and April 5th storms just didn’t hit that level of fluff. Looking back at my records, I guess it was around March 22nd when we last had a substantial dose of fluffy powder, but it was certainly back for this week’s storm. The temperature at the car was only 25 F, so it didn’t look like the fluff was going anywhere too quickly.

As I started skinning I was greeted with a hissing sound that I hadn’t heard for a couple of weeks, that sound that’s made as your skis push their way through very airy crystals of snow. The mountain was notably quiet without the usual preparation for running the lifts, and the silence seemed to amplify the effect of swishing through the snow. I skinned all the way up to the Vista Summit (3,150’) and here’s what I found for Wednesday Morning’s accumulations:

2,100’: 1 - 2”
2,500’: 2 - 3”
2,600’: 3”
2,800’: 3 - 4”
3,150’: 4 - 5”

In terms of the skiing, I was very impressed at how bottomless much of it was, even as I’d descended into the middle elevations. There was such a gradual density change in the snow as it had accumulated, that it just pushed back at you with as much force as you exerted. Eventually as I got far enough below mid mountain, there just wasn’t enough snow to keep me off the base, but I wasn’t complaining.

When I headed back down the access road at around 8:30 A.M., the temperature at the base of the road was 34 F. There was light snow on and off on the route to Burlington, and through all the valleys the most notable accumulation was in that relatively high elevation area of Williston (600-700’) where I’d seen heavy snowfall on Tuesday afternoon. There was about an inch of snow on the ground there, and the sun came out at times so I took a couple of additional pictures in that area to cap off the morning. A few of the pictures from the day are added below:

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J.Spin
 
After catching some fresh powder up at the mountain on Wednesday morning, I could see that it continued to snow in the mountains (and even the valleys) throughout the rest of the day and into the evening. The temperatures had stayed relatively cool throughout the period, so I decided to go back up Thursday morning and see what the additional accumulations had done for the skiing. There had still been no substantial accumulation in the valleys, but as I drove up the Bolton Valley access road I could see that there was definitely some new up at elevation. The new snow was more of the 6-8% H2O fluff that had topped off the skiing on Wednesday morning, but things were a little different on the weather front. Whereas Wednesday morning had featured light snow and a temperature of 25 F at the village elevation (~2,100’), Thursday morning started with a temperature around 30 F and some sunshine. There were still some thick clouds off to the south, but things were much clearer to the north and I got to enjoy the view of the sun lighting up some of the peaks and gullies on the west wall of Bolton Valley.

I followed my same skinning route as Wednesday morning, using Beech Seal/New Sherman’s/Sherman’s, which seems to be becoming one of my favorites. There was another guy skinning up on the mountain as well, and he took a faster route with Schuss. I’ve never enjoyed breaking trail up Schuss because of its steep pitch, but I’ll have to try it on some of these days when the powder isn’t all that deep. In terms of snow accumulations and depths, it looked like the mountain had just picked up a couple of new inches at most elevations. The Thursday morning depths are updated below. The first depth is what I found Wednesday morning, and the Thursday depths follow after the arrows:

2,100’: 1 - 2” --> 2 – 3”
2,500’: 2 - 3” --> 4”
2,600’: 3” --> 5”
2,800’: 3 - 4” --> 5 - 6”
3,150’: 4 - 5” --> 6”+

There were a few tracks around on the mountain, mostly buried under the newest coating of snow and presumably from folks that had been out at some point on Wednesday. As I was finishing my ascent under S.P.L. Chute, I noticed that my favorite line there was untracked and looking very nice in the morning sunlight. I decided to give it a go, so as soon as I’d ripped off my skins near the Vista Summit I dropped into the powder. The new addition of snow kicked things up a bit and the turns were nice, but the depth was still only about 6 inches or so. My initial plan was to ski Cobrass, so I quickly herring boned back to the summit and headed that way. I was treated to nice, albeit cloudy, views of Camel’s Hump and other Green Mountain peaks to the south. There were a couple of old tracks on Cobrass, but mostly it was unblemished powder that was primed for some shredding. I worked my way over toward the Snowflake area and climbed to the Snowflake summit for some bonus turns on Bentley and Foxy. My Suunto recorded a descent of 1,140’ so it looks my bit of additional work netted about 100 extra vertical vs. a straight descent of the main mountain. The snowpack at the Mt. Mansfield stake hit 90 inches on Thursday, and based on Scott’s summary of the week up there it looks like the higher elevations were skiing quite well. Some pictures from Thursday morning have been added below:

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J.Spin
 
Maybe Tony with his Excel sheets can figure this out... over this season, how have JSpin's powder-day numbers stacked up against the LCC crew?

I'm not talking how deep it was , which'll obviously fall in UT's favor, or the year-to-date totals (I'd guess that Bolton has gotten a little more than half of Alta's 630 inches). I'm just curious about the number of TRs where there were at least five to six inches of fresh snow.

I haven't kept track, but it seems like almost every third or fourth day, JSpin is posting powder photos... :drool: This seems to underscore Tony's point that someone in northern VT with a relatively flexible schedule can do almost as well as many western places, and that the major downside is the 20% of total days, where you get midwinter rain/freeze events that are rare out west.
 
jamesdeluxe":111fjoj9 said:
I'm just curious about the number of TRs where there were at least five to six inches of fresh snow.
First I suggest you get your definitions correct. A mere 5 or 6 inches is not a powder day in Utah.
 
Marc_C":1n79x4wx said:
First I suggest you get your definitions correct. A mere 5 or 6 inches is not a powder day in Utah.
I don't know how to express my question more clearly, so let's try again:

jamesdeluxe":1n79x4wx said:
I'm not talking how deep it was, which'll obviously fall in UT's favor (...) I'm just curious about the number of TRs where there were at least five to six inches of fresh snow.
You really need to give this competitive streak of yours a rest.
 
jamesdeluxe":3938jeo3 said:
I don't know how to express my question more clearly, so let's try again:

jamesdeluxe":3938jeo3 said:
I'm not talking how deep it was, which'll obviously fall in UT's favor (...) I'm just curious about the number of TRs where there were at least five to six inches of fresh snow.
You really need to give this competitive streak of yours a rest.

Hilarious!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Good coverages on the " Cobrass" . No one give you a hassle for hiking on closed ski trails or are the trails on state forest lands . Those trails with the artifical base could keep you in business for a few weeks to say the least .
 
jamesdeluxe":254s83dh said:
Marc_C":254s83dh said:
First I suggest you get your definitions correct. A mere 5 or 6 inches is not a powder day in Utah.
I don't know how to express my question more clearly, so let's try again:

jamesdeluxe":254s83dh said:
I'm not talking how deep it was, which'll obviously fall in UT's favor (...) I'm just curious about the number of TRs where there were at least five to six inches of fresh snow.
You really need to give this competitive streak of yours a rest.
What? You need to be reminded of the context you created in your post only a few hours ago? You created this entire strawman argument with:
Maybe Tony with his Excel sheets can figure this out... over this season, how have JSpin's powder-day numbers stacked up against the LCC crew?
I was just pointing out that your frame of reference was incorrect - we simply don't consider 5 or 6 inches of snow a powder day, so we rarely even think to mention it in a TR. Meanwhile JSpin is using the eastern metric of a powder day and reporting it as such, and you're suggesting that we "analyze" this with the help of Tony's spreadsheets as to who gets more powder days.

Sheese. Sounds like sour grapes to me. We have better things to do than bother with this BS. Like go skiing. In powder.
 
Since you've asked my opinion :stir: :

I was just pointing out that your frame of reference was incorrect - we simply don't consider 5 or 6 inches of snow a powder day
I think the definition of powder skiing is fairly simple. If you're skiing on the subsurface, it's not a powder day. If you're above it, then you have flotation, the technique used is powder technique, and that's what it means to most of us. You can get that on 5 or 6 inches if the snow is fairly dense and the pitch is intermediate. JSpin has provided abundant photographic evidence, and I for one have little doubt that he's skiing powder. The terrain at Bolton is virtually all intermediate pitch by LCC standards. Furthermore JSpin is often skiing in the trees where the 5 or 6 inches may be skiing deeper than that because what's underneath may not have been packed down since the last storm.

On the other side of the equation JSpin's vertical totals look miniscule by Utah standards because he's earning a lot of those turns, and even when he's using the lifts he's often not there the whole day and rarely breaks 10K. Compare that to the 189K of powder admin got in a subpar 2006-07 Utah season (I think 225-250K is more normal) by my rather stringent definition. I don't think JSpin is coming close to that, even though he may have a similar number of days with some powder.

There are a few Vermont locals (Powderfreak, Riverc0il the year he lived in St. Johnsbury) who probably do ski a comparable amount of powder as many of the Utah locals.

MarcC's "5 or 6 inches" comment is really more qualitative than quantitative IMHO. Most of us would rate ripping 1,000 vertical of Backside or Paranoid in fresh snow this past weekend higher than the powder on an intermediate trail at Bolton. But I do get JSpin's powder-centric strategy. If a storm is only 6 inches, I stay away from the steep stuff and look for "low-angle powder." Admin made this point to me at Powder Mt. in 2007.
 
Marc_C":r4agtxrb said:
Sheese. Sounds like sour grapes to me. We have better things to do than bother with this BS. Like go skiing. In powder.
My question was about as innocuous as they come, and Tony interpreted it as such. It wasn't written in a way to provoke anyone or restart this dumb East/West thing again.

Given the conditions in which you regularly ski -- something that would keep me in a good mood round-the-clock -- I have no idea what precipitates the anger that accompanies a good percentage of your posts here. Maybe Crocker should provide a spreadsheet analysis of that.
 
jamesdeluxe":188mpf5s said:
My question was about as innocuous as they come, and Tony interpreted it as such. It wasn't written in a way to provoke anyone or restart this dumb East/West thing again.
Asking for a comparison of who gets more powder days, a Vermonter or an LCC local, sure sounded like more :stir: than an innocuous question. Particularly when a powder day is equated with 5" - 6" of new snow, which, as Tony pointed out, ignores the reality of LCC most of the time. Sorry I misunderstood.

As far as who gets more powder days...kind of a non-issue for us. Not anger, we just don't* pay that much attention to it. The testament to this is that Admin doesn't know how many powder days he has nor his season powder vertical - Tony had to track it for him. In fact, thanks to our frequent spring storms, good corn days are even more elusive.

*Edited for missing word "don't"
 
I know that after you've been in a big-snow region for even a month or so, you develop an "I don't get out of bed for less than ___ inches of fresh snow" attitude. I'm sure I would too. My point was that given the days they were available (weekends along with a weekday or two) or deemed it good enough to get out of bed to go skiing, based purely on anecdotal photo evidence (not their claim that it was a "powder day"), JSpin was staying somewhat competitive with my Cottonwoods acquaintances for fresh snow days. It wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison of one person living at the base of Bolton and one person living at the base of Alta, each having nothing else to do but ski.

Unlike most of the Utards (or so it seems), I'm no longer in a position to tell my employer the day after a storm, "I'll be in at 1 pm." That and having a special-needs kid with no grandparents or other family members nearby has turned me into the lowest form of life for half of my ski days: a destination dope. I wish it were different, but as I'm told about five times daily by unemployed and under-employed friends, "you've got a lot of nerve bitching that work is preventing you from skiing."
 
In fact, thanks to our frequent spring storms, good corn days are even more elusive.
The one aspect where we often have Utah beat. :D We took several laps on out-of-way sunny groomers with perfect corn yesterday, only 2 days after we were skiing powder all day at Mammoth. I would think the Baldy and Mineral Basin chairs might provide similar opportunities.

The reason for all the number crunching is not to collect meaningless trivia, but to answer legitimate questions like james posed. The detail from one of admin's seasons does provide useful info. It shows the powder potential for someone in a perfect location, but who still works full time and has to ski mostly weekends. Riverc0il's year in St. Johnsbury would probably be the closest apples-to-apples comparison for Vermont. JSpin is an imperfect comparison, as he has a different agenda from most of us. He's spending a lot of time training his kids, and also using skinning as his nearly daily exercise, then skiing one run and going to work.

The other comparison for admin's season, which should please many of you, is that he's getting 50-100% more powder than I am even though I'm spending major $$$ for up to a week of it each season. The needling that he and MarcC do periodically about moving is constructive IMHO. It demonstrates that where you live can contribute much more to your daily quality of life than how much money you spend.
 
Around here when it snows every couple of days in spring, all you get in between is wallpaper paste.
 
Admin":27921awf said:
Around here when it snows every couple of days in spring, all you get in between is wallpaper paste.
And a Mineral Basin that is closed due to avi concerns from daytime heating, like it was yesterday.
 
It shows the powder potential for someone in a perfect location, but who still works full time and has to ski mostly weekends.
I would put quotation marks around that: "full time"
 
I would put quotation marks around that: "full time"
Admin takes most of his vacation days one at a time when there's powder. But you don't see him running off anywhere for a week or two at a time. Larry Schick takes his vacation days exactly the same way.

Obviously it depends upon one's employer. But I've observed that when you're gone a day or two, or even a week, it's rarely a big deal to hold something off until you can get back and catch up. It's when you take off for 3 weeks that they start asking questions about how they are going to handle problems in your absence.

The self-employed can have it toughest. Every day off is $ lost so many of them get hardly any time off. The Iron Blosam week is the only skiing Al Solish has been getting in recent years, and as a result he's slowing down considerably.
 
Tony Crocker":25wp8gok said:
It's when you take off for 3 weeks that they start asking questions about how they are going to handle problems in your absence.
Then there's the other side of the problem - you take off for 3 weeks and somehow everything gets handled. Have you just proven your irrelevance? :shock:
 
Tony Crocker":3prvyczx said:
Admin takes most of his vacation days one at a time when there's powder.

As I anticipate doing this week. Baby, can you say "25 to 40 inches"? \:D/
 
I haven’t had a chance to get around to this update until now, but here’s a Stowe report from Thursday. I had some time in the afternoon, so I picked up Ty after school and we headed over to Mt. Mansfield for some turns. We didn’t think we’d have time to catch the lifts, so the plan was to skin up Gondolier and see what it had to offer for snow. There had been fresh snow on Wednesday from the tail end of a storm and I’d found nice light powder up at Bolton Valley on Thursday morning, but with warm temperatures during the day, I was worried that Thursday afternoon was going to produce mush. Fortunately, the lower elevations of Mansfield were fully over to corn by the time we’d arrived. It sounded like the higher elevations did have some sticky snow as the powder warmed up, but I suspect the more minimal accumulations in the lower elevations had simply melted in the sun, revealing the corn underneath. It was nice to see that coverage on Gondolier was excellent right down to the base elevations.

Ty seemed pretty tired from a long day at school, but looking up Gondolier he suggested that we try for a spot up near one of the race shacks. I suspected that would be about 500’ of vertical. While heading up we saw a few other folks coming down in the area, either those that had still been up on the mountain from lift service or had hiked up earlier themselves. The sun sets early in the eastern shadow of Mt. Mansfield, and I could see that we were going to be racing the direct sunlight to reach our chosen stopping point. The sun had been below Mansfield’s ridge line for a few minutes by the time Ty joined me up near the race shack. Ty definitely needed a rest, but we didn’t waste too much time since the snow was probably going to be setting up now that it was out of the direct sun.

On the descent we found that even after just 10 minutes or so out of the sun, the corn snow was already starting to set up, but fortunately it was still decent skiing. There had been a lot of traffic on the trail from previous skiers, but we were able to find some untracked corn along the skier’s left of the trail. Ty couldn’t really manage Telemark turns in the areas that had seen traffic, so he simply skied those alpine and then worked on Telemark turns when we got to areas where the corn snow was fresh. We weren’t out on the slopes over Easter weekend, but the temperatures seemed reasonably cool and there was even a touch of new snow, so hopefully there wasn’t too much snow loss. The forecast this week looks to feature a lot of sun with excellent temperatures for corn cycling, so hopefully that will set up some good snow for the coming weekend. A couple of shots from Thursday afternoon are attached below:

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J.Spin
 
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