Western Weather 2017-18 and Later
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Snowbird is stating 233" so far this season. That's an impressive number considering there is still most of January, all of February and March to come - not to mention some inevitable snow in April. I believe they usually average about 500 inches per season?
I'm sure @Tony Crocker will know if they are ahead of schedule for this time.
I'm sure @Tony Crocker will know if they are ahead of schedule for this time.
Snowbird numbers are a SWAG. They basically report something close to Alta Collins. Both numbers include October, when it snowed 40 inches but the base shrank to 9 inches during the first 3 dry weeks of November.
The real numbers (9,600 feet mid-mountain both areas) since Nov. 1 are 182 inches Alta and 163 inches Snowbird. That does not change the conclusion that skiing is and should be excellent at both places. The ratio between the Alta and Snowbird numbers is right on its long term average since 1989.
A real number for Snowbird 9,600 can be calculated using (Alta Collins snowfall) x (Snowbird SNOTEL water content ) / (Alta Collins water content).
The real numbers (9,600 feet mid-mountain both areas) since Nov. 1 are 182 inches Alta and 163 inches Snowbird. That does not change the conclusion that skiing is and should be excellent at both places. The ratio between the Alta and Snowbird numbers is right on its long term average since 1989.
A real number for Snowbird 9,600 can be calculated using (Alta Collins snowfall) x (Snowbird SNOTEL water content ) / (Alta Collins water content).
I received an email this morning and I was interested to see that Whistler is only 67% open despite plenty of snow over the past week.
Someone on the ground there right now has said patrol is having great difficulty with control work in the alpine. There's a huge slab at Symphony that is resisting being moved despite aerial bombing. Blasting was happening all day today apparently and finally Harmony opened in the afternoon. There's hope the Peak will open tomorrow.
Off that topic is a question Tony will probably know the answer to.
How much fallen snow translates to base build up? Or does it depend on the water content of the snow? For example to get a 100 inch base is 200 inches of snow required? It seems some resorts seem to 'retain' more than others.
Someone on the ground there right now has said patrol is having great difficulty with control work in the alpine. There's a huge slab at Symphony that is resisting being moved despite aerial bombing. Blasting was happening all day today apparently and finally Harmony opened in the afternoon. There's hope the Peak will open tomorrow.
Off that topic is a question Tony will probably know the answer to.
How much fallen snow translates to base build up? Or does it depend on the water content of the snow? For example to get a 100 inch base is 200 inches of snow required? It seems some resorts seem to 'retain' more than others.
As I commented in the Silver Mt. avalanche thread, there is no question that Whistler's weather pattern this season is a worst case scenario for snow stability.
There are lots of variables in snow depth as percent of snowfall but water content is the most important. But of course if that high water content snowfall crosses the line into rain the ratio will go down some.
Alta is a good way to track this progression with reliable reporting in snowfall, base , ratio:
Dec. 8: 90, 53, 59%
Dec. 15: 125, 71, 57%
Dec. 24: 136, 65, 48%
Jan. 1: 155, 69, 45%
Jan. 11: 207, 89, 43%
Today: 242, 108, 45%
The ratio doesn't decline smoothly; it rises with a big dump than settles over a week or so after that. But over a season the snowpack compresses more and more. Alta passed the 100 inch base depth mark not long after passing the 200 inch snowfall mark. But Alta averages 500+ inches snowfall and the max base depth average is probably less than Mammoth's 139 inches. In the monster 2010-11 season my last base depth number for Alta was 196 inches on April 10 and Alta already had 637 inches snowfall by then.
I track this stat for the season and Jan. 1 vs. Nov/Dec snowfall, but most of the base depth data is from the Westwide Avalanche Network 1979-1995. I could add my manually collected base depth info since 2004 but have not gotten around to it. I'm generally suspicious of base depth data reported by resorts as it can be wildly inconsistent between different resorts.
Overall ratios of max season base depth to season snowfall are in the 25% range in the Rockies. Scattered West Coast data is in the 30% range. The ideal is to have high water content with no rain, so no surprise Mammoth and Mt. Bachelor are the leaders in this stat in the 40% range. The Jan. 1 vs. Nov/Dec snowfall stat is usually in the 40% range but can be 60% at Mammoth/Bachelor.
There are lots of variables in snow depth as percent of snowfall but water content is the most important. But of course if that high water content snowfall crosses the line into rain the ratio will go down some.
If the 200 inches comes in a fairly short period of time you might get a 100 inch base. Over the course of a whole season, definitely not. That's why I commented before that if Spencer's Creek attains a 200cm base, that means it probably got 500+cm snowfall.sbooker":3hzyu95q said:
Alta is a good way to track this progression with reliable reporting in snowfall, base , ratio:
Dec. 8: 90, 53, 59%
Dec. 15: 125, 71, 57%
Dec. 24: 136, 65, 48%
Jan. 1: 155, 69, 45%
Jan. 11: 207, 89, 43%
Today: 242, 108, 45%
The ratio doesn't decline smoothly; it rises with a big dump than settles over a week or so after that. But over a season the snowpack compresses more and more. Alta passed the 100 inch base depth mark not long after passing the 200 inch snowfall mark. But Alta averages 500+ inches snowfall and the max base depth average is probably less than Mammoth's 139 inches. In the monster 2010-11 season my last base depth number for Alta was 196 inches on April 10 and Alta already had 637 inches snowfall by then.
I track this stat for the season and Jan. 1 vs. Nov/Dec snowfall, but most of the base depth data is from the Westwide Avalanche Network 1979-1995. I could add my manually collected base depth info since 2004 but have not gotten around to it. I'm generally suspicious of base depth data reported by resorts as it can be wildly inconsistent between different resorts.
Overall ratios of max season base depth to season snowfall are in the 25% range in the Rockies. Scattered West Coast data is in the 30% range. The ideal is to have high water content with no rain, so no surprise Mammoth and Mt. Bachelor are the leaders in this stat in the 40% range. The Jan. 1 vs. Nov/Dec snowfall stat is usually in the 40% range but can be 60% at Mammoth/Bachelor.
Thanks Tony. The seemingly erratic base depth measurements across varied resorts was the reason for my question.
Now makes sense to me that the ratio declines as the season progresses because of the pure weight of the snow compressing the pack.
Thanks.
I must have missed your comments regarding the Whistler snow pack in the other thread.
Now makes sense to me that the ratio declines as the season progresses because of the pure weight of the snow compressing the pack.
Thanks.
I must have missed your comments regarding the Whistler snow pack in the other thread.
Whistler terrain still at 67% open.
They've managed to get nothing more in the alpine open? Will this be an indefinite thing? Or will a few days without snow allow time for things to settle and therefore control some of the area?
I have some interest in the BC resorts because I expect to be in that vicinity this time next year. (Keep flip flopping between BC and Europe).
They've managed to get nothing more in the alpine open? Will this be an indefinite thing? Or will a few days without snow allow time for things to settle and therefore control some of the area?
I have some interest in the BC resorts because I expect to be in that vicinity this time next year. (Keep flip flopping between BC and Europe).
I certainly wouldn't worry about next year. Whistler's November this season was unprecedented.
Whistler's website https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/the-m ... tatus.aspx shows the delayed Peak/Symphony runs open today. It may take awhile for the consolidator websites (SnoCountry, OnTheSnow) to pick up this info.
Whistler's website https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/the-m ... tatus.aspx shows the delayed Peak/Symphony runs open today. It may take awhile for the consolidator websites (SnoCountry, OnTheSnow) to pick up this info.
SnoCountry shows Whistler/Blackcomb in full operation today.
Since January 6, defined by MarcC as the start of the "January dry spell", Alta has received 88 inches of snow. :-({|=
EMSC
Well-known member
Tony Crocker":2l9px3lb said:
I thought mid-January was the guaranteed, inevitable inversion in SLC, LOL ](*,)
On another note, after 7 weeks of 1", 2" or (I think twice 3") at Eldora (eg just enough to keep groomed surfaces decent, but allow steeps to get scraped off to rocks), we finally have "Gee Bob where did the snow stake go?":
Is Eldora generally (or comparatively) seen as being in a snow shadow? It certainly gets more snow than Keystone, right?
EMSC
Well-known member
jamesdeluxe":2i5llack said:
1) Yes 2) No.
Eldora is just far enough East of the divide to be in a snow shadow for certain wind directions. This particular year a huge number of storms have come from precisely those wind directions, thus the measly 1" and 2" snowfalls; frequently with brutal winds blowing it into the woods (or perhaps Kansas at times).
This is how things work out at Eldora by wind/storm direction/origination:
SW winds - Snow shadow: unless OpenSnow says "holy crap there is more moisture in the air then ever before" then Eldora = skunked. Clouds or maybe an inch. The exception is those huge moisture storms of which I've only seen a few lifetime; then Eldora is close enough that the divide wrings it out just fine on those super rare occasions.
West Winds - Snow Shadow: kinda similar as SW above, but a few more inches are likely (eg the couple of 3" storms in Jan).
NW & NNW winds (or 'NW flow' (today's event) - Eldora does just fine and while probably a few inches less than Summit County, it pretty much holds it's own.
East/Upslope winds - The other type of storm that really delivers for Eldora. Usually get much more than most of Colo from these types of storm (Upslope storms are the most frequent in March/April). Occasional busts though, that will plaster the foothills but convection is not high enough to hit the divide ski areas with much snow.
As for total snowfall, the way Tony measures it (not counting Oct or after lifts close), Eldora is pretty much exactly at the same as Keystone by the end of an average year - 230" (vs the marketing brochure of 300"). But Eldora gets much of its snowfall in totally different storms. And yes for a number of years I kept track to calculate the 230" number (accurate to +/- ~5 inches).
Heard Eldora was parked out by like 9am today and turning cars around. Gotta love the Ikon pass :?
EMSC
Well-known member
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
https://www.reddit.com/r/skiing/comments/f0cblu/lift_line_apocalypse_at_vail_after_a_17_dump/
https://www.reddit.com/r/skiing/comments/f0cblu/lift_line_apocalypse_at_vail_after_a_17_dump/
Have you seen their revenue numbers since they joined Ikon? I'm always curious about ski areas like Eldora -- previously off-the-beaten-path locals joints that become mob scenes after joining Ikon/Epic, at least on weekends/holidays, e.g. Solitude. Also, the difference between being an unlimited Ikon/Epic area and one with a limit of five or seven days per season.EMSC":35t0qa6y said:
I assume that non-powder-day Mon-Fri is still fine?
Eldora is not off the beaten path as EMSC's TR's demonstrate. A local hill for a community as outdoors oriented as Boulder is going to be hopping on weekends and powder days. In another recent thread I commented on how I had skied very busy days at Bridger Bowl (Bozeman) and Montana Snowbowl (Missoula).
I would be surprised to see a big Ikon impact at Eldora. Who skis there besides Boulder locals? And weren't most of those people on RMSP before like EMSC? I would guess maybe more Boulder locals are patronizing Eldora as the I-70 junkshow continues to get worse.
I would be surprised to see a big Ikon impact at Eldora. Who skis there besides Boulder locals? And weren't most of those people on RMSP before like EMSC? I would guess maybe more Boulder locals are patronizing Eldora as the I-70 junkshow continues to get worse.
