Alta in April

[Admin]

It's not surprising, but the antagonist in this snowball fight has been in and out of these forums today but has yet to respond to being called out.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Next week is my Iron Blosam week. Last year there was an 18-22 inch storm on Monday.

As most of you know, I do have detailed records of my ski days, 67 of them in March at Alta or Snowbird in 18 different seasons. 6 of those I did not ski Alta. 3 of them there was enough new snow that both areas were 80+% winter conditions. The other 9 seasons I had my trademark warm and sunny weather most of the time and skied at least one day at each area. 7 of the 9 had a higher percentage of winter snow at Snowbird than Alta. The difference is not large, 10-20% higher percentage of terrain. That increases a little on an absolute scale when you consider that Snowbird is a larger area.

It's not surprising, but the antagonist in this snowball fight has been in and out of these forums today but has yet to respond to being called out.

At your service. The audience for these questions are primarly vacationing skiers like the OP. My opponents in this snowball fight may live in Utah but they have not been there that long. I suspect my 18 season sample size is more credible than a similar number of days from 1/3 as many seasons because we all know that weather is streaky. 2005 was the last of my Iron Blosam visits where I observed the differnece in transition to spring conditions. My luck seems to be improving a bit as 2 of the past 4 seasons were among the ones with 80+% winter conditions.

I'm trying to provide constructive advice to spring visitors. If you arrive (as I often have) to recent snow but predicted warm weather, I'd recommend hitting Alta first and Snowbird later for example.

it's usually pointless to get up there earlier than 10-10:30

This is another luxury from a cherry-picking local's perspective. Visitors with limited time might want to know how they can best utilize a full ski day.

How many times have you skied BOTH Alta and Snowbird, on the SAME TRIP, in APRIL?

I think most would agree that the transition to spring conditions is more important in April than in March. If there's a 10% difference on transitional March days, it could easily be 20+% with comparable weather in April.

 

[socal]

A gravity traverse, like the High T, is not work (but you do have to treat it like a run all on its own, and ski it rather than letting it ski you). There are just as many huge, long traverses at Snowbird as there are at Alta, and some are even longer. Getting to upper Mach Schnell for example, is a much longer and far more technical traverse than getting to High Rustler at Alta.

I don't know, like I said, I don't mind the high T in the slightest, but with that said, does it tire me out? Of course it does. I enjoy the fact that access to the lines off the High T require "work" to the average tourist and therefore see much less traffic (compare the bumps on Sunspot to the other side of the ridge on say Greeley Bowl (that area at a least)) but take an average upper intermediate skier on the High T and they're beat after one or 2 runs.

I'm kinda just bored and frustrated I can't ski so this threads keeping me entertained and I've learned a thing or 2. In April, with warm weather, I'm going to Alta; but if I'm with a group of friends I know will take a beating on the traverses I'd probably choose Snowbird.

 

[Marc_C]

The audience for these questions are primarly vacationing skiers like the OP. My opponents in this snowball fight may live in Utah but they have not been there that long. I suspect my 18 season sample size is more credible than a similar number of days from 1/3 as many seasons because we all know that weather is streaky. 2005 was the last of my Iron Blosam visits where I observed the differnece in transition to spring conditions. My luck seems to be improving a bit as 2 of the past 4 seasons were among the ones with 80+% winter conditions.

1. I've been here 10 seasons.
2. Your posts imply and convey a major difference between Alta and Snowbird in the early spring - a difference that simply does not exist.
3. Your 18 year sample includes the anomalous 6 years of drought in Utah which ended - surprise - in 2005; something you never mention in your grand and somewhat incorrect assumptions and advice.

 

[schubwa]

This is fun watching you guys bicker! But I can't just sit back and not jump in. Admin, on those north facing maps I see all of Baldy pinked out but how come not all of Twin Peaks at Snowbird? To be fair, it looks like you didn't go above the traverse line from the top of the tram. With two very obvious glacial cirques they must be north facing, or over fifty years of mountain experience has proved me wrong. Don't both peaks require hiking to access? Haven't you local guys posted that it's easier to access the more frequently opened Baldy Chutes from the Bird in the spring? Does that count in Snowbird's favor?

I actually don't care, because everyone knows it's better here than both those places combined in April. Just ask Tony.
:lol:

 

[Tony Crocker]

In April, with warm weather, I'm going to Alta

Not sure If I'm misinterpreting this statement, but would a visiting advanced/expert skier seriously NOT do at least one day at each area? If not, you've been drinking too much of admin's Kool-Aid.

the anomalous 6 years of drought in Utah which ended - surprise - in 2005

The spring transition has little to do with whether it's an overall big snow year. 2005 was in fact the last year I observed a difference in that transition.

And if you're booking in advance, I agree with schubwa's last comment.

 

[socal]

In April, with warm weather, I'm going to Alta

Not sure If I'm misinterpreting this statement, but would a visiting advanced/expert skier seriously NOT do at least one day at each area? If not, you've been drinking too much of admin's Kool-Aid.

And if you're booking in advance, I agree with schubwa's last comment.

No you're reading it right; I've done weekends with 3 days at Alta and none at Snowbird. For me I use the numbers, ratios, etc you have as a guide and thoroughly appreciate the info. I like pulling up to the GMD booting up and getting on the lift. I just have a distaste for the tram deck, the stairs in there, and the overall feel of the snowbird base area. I really like little cloud and Gad II but laps on the tram in the spring are kinda just okay b/c the bottom 1/2 or so just isn't that much fun for me. Part of that is the fact I don't know the mountain well and always seem to end up on the same few bump runs and probably some is due to elevation.

With all that said, I don't drink the coolaid; on a powder day Alta's not usually my first choice due to lines (check out my TR's, most of my powder days I chose Solitude or Snowbasin). But if I'm choosing a resort in LCC I'll take Alta over snowbird for the reasons above and ones I'll probably never be able to explain.

 

[Admin]

7 of the 9 had a higher percentage of winter snow at Snowbird than Alta. The difference is not large, 10-20% higher percentage of terrain. That increases a little on an absolute scale when you consider that Snowbird is a larger area.

And one-third of that larger area is in Mineral Basin, nearly 100% of which is sun-exposed. So, knowing that, I suppose that you're saying that Snowbird has a higher percentage of sun-affected terrain, right?

And how precisely did you measure that "higher percentage of winter snow at Snowbird"? Did you measure relative acreage? No, I didn't think so. If your erroneous presumption is based upon your own personal logs of your ski days then it's based on what you chose to ski at each area and is thus hardly conclusive regarding the relative amount of terrain available at each resort. On top of that, I dare say that until a season or two ago you were hardly adept at navigating your way about Alta, so who knows if you could have found your way to the best snow quality there anyway?

My opponents in this snowball fight may live in Utah but they have not been there that long.

One of your opponents has been here for a decade. I'm into my sixth year.

I suspect my 18 season sample size is more credible than a similar number of days from 1/3 as many seasons because we all know that weather is streaky.

At an average of ~70 days per year for each of us, that's 1,050 days of experience. Care to repeat that assertion? How many days have you spent each at Alta and Snowbird? You mention a whopping 67 days total in March over 18 years, and we know that most of your Utah days have been in March so I'm having a hard time seeing non-March days making up nearly 1,000 more. If you're trying to tell me that your twice-yearly visit makes you more familiar with Alta's terrain than 2- to 3-days-per-week regulars who have been here for six and 10 years, well, then I'm throwing up my hands in disgust because there's absolutely no hope for a rational discussion.

This pissing match has nothing to do with "streaky weather," whatever that means, it has to do with terrain, for your inane assertion was:

if it hasn't snowed recently there will be more terrain with dry winter snow at Snowbird than at Alta.

Try to stay on point, would you please?

I'm trying to provide constructive advice to spring visitors.

No, you're providing false and misleading advice with no basis in fact.

Visitors with limited time might want to know how they can best utilize a full ski day.

So why, then, would you mislead them? You've been proven wrong on this point before, yet you keep trudging it out year after year after year.

If there's a 10% differnece on transitional march days, it could easily be 20+% with comparable weather in April.

But if there's 0% difference on transitional March days, it would still be 0% with comparable weather in April. Stop making false and misleading statements.

Admin, on those north facing maps I see all of Baldy pinked out but how come not all of Twin Peaks at Snowbird?

Because Baldy is in-bounds and Twin Peaks is not. Furthermore, Twin Peaks has one skiable line that returns to in-bounds Snowbird terrain (Pipeline), while Baldy Chutes are all in-bounds to Alta and are in fact marked on the map.

To be fair, it looks like you didn't go above the traverse line from the top of the tram.

Not true. High Baldy Traverse (which includes a hike from the Peruvian Ridge saddle) is included in my analysis -- Eddie's is out that traverse. All other Snowbird terrain off that traverse faces due west and not north. If one hikes Baldy above that traverse, all Snowbird terrain it accesses faces south and west and is thus not colored in pink on those maps. Anything above the Tram in the other direction is either out of bounds or prohibited altogether, and not part of the ski area.

Don't both peaks require hiking to access?

Yes, which is why I included the Baldy Chutes as part of Alta's north-facing terrain that requires hiking.

Haven't you local guys posted that it's easier to access the more frequently opened Baldy Chutes from the Bird in the spring? Does that count in Snowbird's favor?

No, because it's Alta's terrain, not Snowbird's. For example, snowboarders are prohibited from riding the Baldy Chutes because Alta bans snowboarding. It just happens that if you have dual lift ticket or pass it's easier to ascend from Snowbird as the grade is more consistent. There are routes up Baldy from either ski area. Technically speaking, the Snowbird ascent is meant to access southwest-facing Snowbird terrain on Baldy, like Living the Dream, and the Alta ascent is meant to access north-facing Alta terrain: the Baldy Chutes. It's only with the relatively recent advent of the combined lift ticket and season pass that one can hike one side and ski down the other, but choosing to ascend from Snowbird simply because it's less exhausting doesn't mysteriously convey Alta terrain to Snowbird.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Historically my bias in favor of Snowbird over Alta was nearly as great as socal's in the opposite direction.

The major reason was the unacceptable liftlines before new Collins.
The secondary reason was that nearly all of my trips were in March with my notorious warm weather track record.

I've been to LCC in January the last 2 years, and at that time of year I would spend at least as much time at Alta as Snowbird. Alta does have a noticeable advantage in conditions in early season until the base depths get to 6 feet or so.

Part of that is the fact I don't know the mountain well

I'm sure not. It has huge variety and I'm still finding new lines to ski after 1.3 million vertical of experience there. Given equal snow conditions Snowbird is just bigger, and that's just one of my key criteria.

 

[schubwa]

It's only with the relatively recent advent of the combined lift ticket and season pass that one can hike one side and ski down the other.

You mean thirty years ago, with a Bird ticket, you couldn't hike up Baldy from that side, ski down the chutes and exit out Keyhole or catch a ride back to the Cliff?

 

[Admin]

You mean thirty years ago, with a Bird ticket, you couldn't hike up Baldy from that side, ski down the chutes and exit out Keyhole or catch a ride back to the Cliff?

Of course you could, although going from Baldy Chutes to Keyhole requires a climb back up the Wildcat ridgeline. What I'm saying is that you can't hike Baldy from Snowbird, ski the Baldy Chutes and get back on a Snowbird lift. Furthermore, to assert that the fact that you can access Alta's Baldy Chutes from the Snowbird hike puts the Baldy Chutes in the Snowbird column, and not Alta's, is ludicrous.

 

[Skrad]

You can ski Baldy Chutes and get back to a Snowbird lift. Ski to the Collins angle station and take the traverse to Collins Face. Keep traversing under the Wildcat lift (there is always a traverse line here now). Eventually you come out above the View condos where you can catch a groomed track that will take you back to Snowbird Center.

I ski Alta 9/10 days but (like Tony Crocker I guess) prefer Snowbird on the warm spring days. Snowbird has more bump free chalky snow in the Upper Cirque and the frozen stuff in Mineral softens earlier than the frozen stuff at Alta. A high percentage of Alta's north facing stuff (High Boy, the Nest, Wildcat) is afflicted with moguls.

 

[Admin]

You can ski Baldy Chutes and get back to a Snowbird lift. Ski to the Collins angle station and take the traverse to Collins Face. Keep traversing under the Wildcat lift (there is always a traverse line here now). Eventually you come out above the View condos where you can catch a groomed track that will take you back to Snowbird Center.

OK, you're right -- I never think of the Blackjack traverse.

 

[Skrad]

With the dual don't have to. We can take Wildcat and ski Keyhole! The traverse is lame.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'll go through the whole list in italics.

On that Alta list, #2, 3, 4 and 7 are all purely gravity traverses -- no uphill required. #1, 5, 6, 9 and 10 have uphill elements -- some insignificant, some substantial.

Can someone comment on how many of Snowbird's trails noted below are accessible either just off the lift or a very short traverse away?

#1, 4, part of 5 and 6 only. Most of #2 has an uphill element. You're defining "work" as including substantial traverses as well, however, and that includes #2, 3, part of 5, 7 and 8

That leaves for high-elevation north-facing terrain at Snowbird:
1. Great Scott (plus numerous chutes along the entire Upper Cirque as far as Elevator) short to moderate traverses, some bony entries like Rat's Nest.
2. A couple of select lines in Mineral long traverse and short hike if you do Hillary Step
3. Eddie's long traverse and short hike
4. Silver Fox (and Primrose, several variations) easy tram access
5. Mark Malou and the chutes just beyond the Knucklehead moderate gravity traverse
6. Broomstick and STH (but not the rest of Gad 2 easy access, much more terrain in here including tree shots than admin implies
7. Mach Schnell long gravity traverse
8. Dalton's (upper only, not lower) extension of traverse in 7, short vertical relative to length of traverse

North-facing terrain at Alta that stays dry includes:
1. ALL of Devil's Castle moderate traverse and short hike
2. ALL of North Rustler long gravity traverse
3. ALL of Eagle's Nest long gravity traverse
4. ALL of Ballroom/Baldy Shoulder short to moderate traverse for short to moderate vertical
5. Baldy Chutes 30-45 minute hike
6. Select parts of Catherine's short hike, moderate traverse, short vertical, long runout which is exposed to melt/freeze
7. High Rustler/Hourglass/Regal long traverse, some bony entries
8. Nearly ALL of Wildcat (unlike Snowbird's lower runs, Alta's aren't too low) easy access, but mostly bumps if no recent snow, I've never seen admin seek out those runs on a warm day
9. Gunsight moderate traverse, 10 min hike, usually worth it IMHO
10. Eddie's High Nowhere moderate traverse, tougher hike than Gunsight

Some of this boils down to personal preferences. Much of the terrain I like best at Alta are places like Backside and the numerous drops off West Rustler. These face enough east and west respectively that they have spring conditions on warm March days. A lot of the comparable terrain at Snowbird (upper Primrose/Silver Fox, most of the open terrain on Little Cloud) faces north.

And one-third of that larger area is in Mineral Basin, nearly 100% of which is sun-exposed. So, knowing that, I suppose that you're saying that Snowbird has a higher percentage of sun-affected terrain, right?

Actually over half of those comparisons were in the 80's and 90's before Mineral was developed. Snowbird was already bigger than Alta then. Adding Mineral's terrain may change percentages but it doesn't subtract any of Snowbird's north facing steeps.

At an average of ~70 days per year for each of us, that's 1,050 days of experience.

We're discussing admin's experience here during possible spring transitions while both areas are open. Between March 1 and Alta's closing date Admin has skied 62 days at Alta and 16 at Snowbird, pretty similar to my experience in the same time frame but with the Alta/Snowbird ratio reversed.

Interested readers should be aware that the universe of frequent FTO posters is not necessarily representative of Utah locals or regular visitors. Admin skis Alta at least 4x as much as Snowbird and has attracted ski companions who post here and share his preference. There are at least as many Utah locals who prefer Snowbird as strongly (overall ticket sales are similar), and it is a fact that Alta ticket sales were declining relative to Snowbird until the new Collins lift was installed. This ameliorated Alta's most severe flaw, and my days there thus have increased since.

The bottom line is that spring visitors to LCC should ski a day at both areas early in their trip and make decisions after that based upon personal preferences.

 

[Admin]

That leaves for high-elevation north-facing terrain at Snowbird:
1. Great Scott (plus numerous chutes along the entire Upper Cirque as far as Elevator) short to moderate traverses, some bony entries like Rat's Nest.

Only if you consider "two" to be numerous. I don't. And Elevator is virtually unskiable to the vast majority of the population. I'll only attempt it in a big snow year, personally.

3. Eddie's long traverse and short hike

Correction: that's a moderately substantial hike for most people (a good 10-12 minutes at least for me), followed by a long traverse across DFU territory. More often than not, at that time of year that traverse is baked into concrete. More than once I've been a bit sketched out by holding an edge on that traverse.

4. Silver Fox (and Primrose, several variations) easy tram access

Easy Tram access, I certainly agree. It's directly below the top station. However, Silver Fox/Primrose is basically the same run.

5. Mark Malou and the chutes just beyond the Knucklehead moderate gravity traverse

Depends on how far out you go. Past the Rasta Chutes and toward the Bass Benches the traverse starts going uphill.

6. Broomstick and STH (but not the rest of Gad 2 easy access, much more terrain in here including tree shots than admin implies

Lots of tree shots, true, but what you don't say there is that nearly all of those tree shots face east and east-northeast, not north.

7. High Rustler/Hourglass/Regal long traverse, some bony entries

Only bony if you're clueless about where you're going.

Some of this boils down to personal preferences.

Quite true, as it has absolutely nothing to do with terrain.

A lot of the comparable terrain at Snowbird (upper Primrose/Silver Fox, most of the open terrain on Little Cloud) faces north.

Absolutely, positively nothing in Little Cloud Bowl faces north. At all. It nearly all faces smack-dab due west. See topo map, above.

Interested readers should be aware that the universe of frequent FTO posters is not necessarily representative of Utah locals or regular visitors. Admin skis Alta at least 4x as much as Snowbird and has attracted ski companions who post here and share his preference.

Another patent falsehood. I've known Marc_C since we both lived back in the Northeast and he has posted here since long before I moved here. The only Utah local/regular visitor whom I've attracted to post here on at least a semi-regular basis is Bobby Danger, and he has no demonstrated affinity for one place over the other. Anyone else from around here who posts regularly does so of their own volition, and not because I ski with them regularly. I consider myself fortunate if I bump into one of them on occasion.

There are at least as many Utah locals who prefer Snowbird as strongly (overall ticket sales are similar)

True, but many of those do so because they're riding one plank, not two.

The bottom line is that spring visitors to LCC should ski a day at both areas early in their trip and make decisions after that based upon personal preferences.

I agree whole-heartedly with that sentiment -- as I said much earlier in this conversation, I very much enjoy both ski areas -- but I disagree that this is "the bottom line." Once again, you attempt to deflect criticism by changing the point of reference. "The bottom line" has nothing to do with trying to steer someone to one destination over the other, but instead is solely to point out that your statement:

if it hasn't snowed recently there will be more terrain with dry winter snow at Snowbird than at Alta.

is false, misleading and supported solely by your personal bias and not by fact.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Only if you consider "two" to be numerous. I don't.

Let's see: Great Scott, Jaws, Shot 10, Shot 9, and the more open part of the Upper Cirque to the rocks that shade Elevator.

And Elevator is virtually unskiable to the vast majority of the population.

Really? Adam was in there on his first Iron Blosam trip at age 11. I'd have a hard time remembering an Iron Blosam week when I didn't ski Elevator. And we all know I'm just a touron.

I'll only attempt it in a big snow year, personally.

There's a grain of truth here. This MLK weekend with the 48 inch base virtually nothing in the Upper Cirque was skiable without mandatory airs, one of the reasons I prefer Alta in low tide conditions. But nearly all of the Cirque is skiable by March, even in below average years. I realize admin might not be aware of this because he's too busy skiing Alta every chance he gets in March/April because he'll be in mourning when it closes 3rd weekend of April. :stir:

what you don't say there is that nearly all of those tree shots face east and east-northeast, not north.

The ABC trees drop east-facing from Gadzooks to under the lift. The Gad 2 steeps, both open and treed, west of the chair line all face close enough to north to stay dry.

Absolutely, positively nothing in Little Cloud Bowl faces north. At all. It nearly all faces smack-dab due west.

It's a smooth curve from due north facing Mark Malu to due west facing Regulator. That makes about half of it more north than west.

The only Utah local/regular visitor whom I've attracted to post here on at least a semi-regular basis is Bobby Danger, and he has no demonstrated affinity for one place over the other.

I would be interested in BobbyD's take for that reason. I did misspeak in term of number of regular posters. But the vast majority of Utah trip reports on FTO are from admin and unavoidably reflect his Altaholism.

 

[Admin]

My ADD is kicking in, I'm getting bored with this. I'm also tired of arguing with someone who can't see the truth. Finally, I'm going skiing today, which is far preferable to this crap. However, I just can't let this one go:

Absolutely, positively nothing in Little Cloud Bowl faces north. At all. It nearly all faces smack-dab due west.

It's a smooth curve from due north facing Mark Malu to due west facing Regulator. That makes about half of it more north than west.

Absolutely, positively bull$hit. It's not a smooth curve and none of it faces north.

See that creek on the topo near the center of the map? That's Mark Malou Fork, the western boundary of Little Cloud Bowl. Look to the right of that. That's Little Cloud Bowl. It all faces west. And besides -- that stuff just east of Mark Malou Fork has snow boulders the size of refrigerators that tumble down from digging out Road to Provo and litter the slope.

OK, we got a lot more snow last night than had been expected, at least judging from the 10" or so on my deck rail this morning (we were supposed to get an inch or two). I'm going skiing. Ciao.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I just can't let this one go

We hadn't noticed.

 

[Patrick]

:snowball fight: