Europe 24/25

[jamesdeluxe]

Not much I can say other than that sucks and I know how it feels to get skunked. Out of the 17 trips I've made to Utah over the past 23 years, at least two, maybe three times were during long droughts when it wasn't much better than how you're describing the 3V right now. You can say "that's a pretty good percentage, 3 out of 17," but it doesn't help when you're there and it really doesn't help to hear "you shoulda been here [when]." Naturally, a few days after I left, they got three feet.

why so few Americans bother to ski the Alps and instead focus on the western US/Canada.

Whenever I arrive back at JFK or Newark on flights from Zurich or Geneva, there are dozens of people picking up skis and snowboards. Of course, many more fly out west but saying "so few bother going to the Alps" simply isn't true, at least from the east coast.

 

[Tony Crocker]

In short it is not a surprise to me anymore why so few Americans bother to ski the Alps and instead focus on the western US/Canada.

True for westerners but definitely not for those living on the East Coast. With the current American pricing model, easterners can ski cheaper in the Alps than at prominent western areas.

More like the Eastern US; book last minute when you see the storms lined up (and I don't have that flexibility for now).

Not necessarily to chase storms. Just book the air and car and take advantage of the compact driving distances to chase the best conditions. This is very easy for Liz and me as retirees on 2+ week trips, but James is constrained to one week trips and has executed them successfully most of the time.

James:

Whenever I arrive back at JFK or Newark on flights from Zurich or Geneva, there are dozens of people picking up skis and snowboards. Of course, many more fly out west but saying "so few bother going to the Alps" simply isn't true, at least from the east coast.

Sorry that's anecdotal, the numbers do not support that. Americans skiing in the Alps are a drop in the bucket in terms of both overall visitation in the Alps and ski days by Americans.

I'll have to mention that EMSC and James didn't fly nearly as far as Liz and I did last month, and I can assure them that they had vastly superior overall snow conditions to what we had. I skied 40K vertical and 15K of powder, but that was over 6 ski days!

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Just book the air and car and take advantage of the compact driving distances to chase the best conditions. This is very easy for Liz and me as retirees on 2+ week trips, but James is constrained to one week trips and has executed them successfully most of the time.

We're moving intoterritory but that ^^ is the secret sauce. As opposed to Tony and Liz, who have developed a tolerance to drive far longer distances than I'm willing to, I don't think I've ever called an audible where i drove more than 90 additional minutes for better conditions. The best recent example was the unplanned detour to the 3V two years ago this week.

As long as you're not trying to overnight on-mountain at an industrial resort, you can grab good-value lodging literally at the last minute to ski at an unplanned mountain. For example, at 8 am on Sunday (nine hours before check-in) I booked a hotel for the following three nights. I decided that it would be better at a lower-elevation locals area for spring-ish conditions with midweek tickets around $45, went on booking.com, and got a bargain $70/night rate at this very pleasant hotel with a stunning view of the lake (click through the photos!) and a monster breakfast.

The only times I've violated the flexibility rule was a) to secure an in-demand lodging deal (I.e. the off-peak half-board rate at the Sandhof in Lech) or b) when I was hosted on a ski-press junket. Luckily, neither of those exceptions resulted in lousy conditions.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Whenever I arrive back at JFK or Newark on flights from Zurich or Geneva, there are dozens of people picking up skis and snowboards. Of course, many more fly out west but saying "so few bother going to the Alps" simply isn't true, at least from the east coast.

Sorry that's anecdotal, the numbers do not support that. Americans skiing in the Alps are a drop in the bucket in terms of both overall visitation in the Alps and ski days by Americans.

See above the obvious qualifier "many more fly out west" and it goes without saying that Americans are a tiny percentage of Alps visitation rates. I'm just saying, anecdotal as you believe it to be, I always see a lot more than three or four ECers per flight who fly across the pond to ski.

 

[Sbooker]

I’m in Annecy for the evening. It’s raining here and quite cool so I assume there is some snow falling in the mountains.

 

[ChrisC]

Part of my combination is that I've had many trips to France and Germany over the years mostly paid by my companies at the time. So I find little remaining value in the food/culture stuff. Been there and done that, food has never been a big thing for me anyway.

As you note, given my Colo location I'd rather pay for a 2nd shot at cat skiing or multiple days of drivable skiing goodness or a multitude of much, much higher good snow probability scenarios (Japow).

Which is not to say I will never go to Europe again, just probably never for skiing specifically and likely to new regions I've never been (Baltics, several former east block areas, etc...)

I get that. I have read that Meribel Centre can be a bit 'low' elevation in spring, and last month, they did not see much snow.

While I like the 3 Vallees, I have only been 2x (January 2006), and Val Thorens only (April 2018). I have a few concerns:

• It can skew a bit high intermediate/low expert at max.
• Most exposures are East-West with less true N-facing (maybe Courchevel, Mt. Vallon, parts of Val d'ISere)
• It's well lift-served by HS Lifts - almost too well-served. Typically, I have found some of the best off-piste skiing in Europe (or anywhere generally) when you have a semi-constricted lift (or hike access).
• Some good examples of restricted capacity are:
  • Val d'Isere/Tignes - lots of north-facing terrain, and its West or East are poorly served, preserving powder/snow
  • Andermatt!- upper tram (Carrying capacity/hour: 760 *SkiResortInfo.com). You essentially have 360-degree skiing that does not get skied out. The problem with Andermatt is that you need a guide/group to learn the mountain. Finally, Andermatt Guides is offering more group skiing.
  • Engelberg -upper tram (Carrying capacity/hour: 925) Not quite as much underutilized terrain as Andermatt, but a lot!
  • Courmayeur -upper trams (Carrying capacity/hour: 360, Carrying capacity/hour: 350) What a bottleneck! But great for snow preservation
  • St Moritz/Corvatsch - upper tram (Carrying capacity/hour: 1200)
  • St. Anton - upper Valluga (restricted unless you have a guide)
  • Verbier - lots of low-capcity trams
  • I think La Grave and Zermatt have similar setups, but I have snow concerns - some years suck
• The caveat to the above might be weekend crowding at some areas, but things generally dissipate.

But I saw these recent reports, and it looks like things are improving in 3 Vallees:

Les 3 Vallées 2024/25 Courchevel, Meribel, Val Thorens etc (12), snowHeads ski forum

snowheads.com

Hopefully, things are better in Val d'Isere/Tignes. There might be a Southern Flow-type storm that would favor Val over Tignes, but forecasts are bouncing all over the place.

 

[ChrisC]

Whenever I arrive back at JFK or Newark on flights from Zurich or Geneva, there are dozens of people picking up skis and snowboards. Of course, many more fly out west but saying "so few bother going to the Alps" simply isn't true, at least from the east coast.

I agree with the above. Whenever I connect through NYC to Geneva or Zurich, I see maybe 1/3 of the flight as skiers - picking up skis or ski gear.

Also, I have always encountered quite a few Americans at the Epic/Ikon resorts - especially Chamonix and Zermatt. Not so much at other places.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Whenever I connect through NYC to Geneva or Zurich, I see maybe 1/3 of the flight as skiers - picking up skis or ski gear.

Thank you. @Tony Crocker applying questionable statistics to reach a conclusion.

I have always encountered quite a few Americans at the Epic/Ikon resorts - especially Chamonix and Zermatt. Not so much at other places.

Yes, I've mentioned before running into a fair number of compatriots over the years at the big-name resorts (easy to notice as Americans tend to speak VERY LOUDLY when together in foreign countries, for example in trams, gondolas, or restaurants) but virtually never at the lesser-known joints that I frequent. I usually note in my reports when the latter rarely happens, like at this locals area Werfenweng south of Salzburg:

As I skied alongside this guy, I heard a clear American accent from his girlfriend who had crashed uphill from him. I stopped and chatted with them for five minutes. Amazingly enough, they were both from Westchester, NY and on their way back to Salzburg airport:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Are these UKers at an alternate-universe 3V than the one @EMSC and crew are visiting?

I saw these recent reports, and it looks like things are improving in 3 Vallees:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

While I like the 3 Vallees, I have not returned in almost 20 years (January 2006). I have a few concerns:

• It can skew a bit high intermediate/low expert at max.

Hah, maybe that's why the offpiste terrain worked for me!

 

[ChrisC]

I had to look up what is happening at VdI/T and 3V.

VdI/T looks quite good.

From the SnowBrains VI/T thread: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=82612&start=10280

Think this guy is a local instructor - Friday 3/14 post:

I looked at snow reports for Val d'Isere and Tignes over the last two days. It seems like there has been at least a foot of cumulative snow.

Looks like 15cm and 15cm on both Saturday and Sun at Val d'Isere at altitude - the new snow totals are in the lowest boxes

And Tignes looks very good - 16 cm and 30 cm at altitude - 18 inches.

It should be good - webcams look positive too!

 

[Sbooker]

^^^^
@ChrisC
It was a nice day today. The course starts tomorrow so we just cruised around and skied the pistes and low angle stuff that I could see from the lifts.
It snowed about 4 inches in Tignes overnight. We started heading up Chaudanne lift so we could check out the new Marais lift that ends at the Aguille Percee.

The main objective was to get over to the Val D’Isere side as the snow was meant to be a bit better over that way. We went down through the trees and stopped for a coffee in Val late morning.

It was indeed deeper snow over that side. These pics from the Col De L’Iseran area near the Cascade lift.

We had a very good quality and value lunch at the Cascade restaurant. It opens year round to cater for the hikers and bikers and drivers in summer. The road leads to the Maurienne valley over the back which is home to Val Cenis ski resorts amongst others. They often do the Tour De France over that pass.
Cloud moved in at about 3pm so we skied back to our digs in Tignes by braille. I find low visibility skiing on bumped up pistes more difficult that any other type of skiing.

I’m excited that Kylie is going to join one of the ‘slower’ Snoworks off pistes groups starting tomorrow. She is quite timid but I think the lady instructor/guide should make her feel comfortable.
One last word about our accommodation. We opted for a great value small apartment in Tignes Le Lac. There are restaurants, bars, a bakery and supermarket on the lowest levels of the building. It is only 100 feet to the Palafour lift and about 150 feet to the Toviere gondola. It is certainly not flash and it is ‘cosy’ but it’s clean and fully self contained. I paid 490 Euros for the entire 7 nights! Amazing value! This view from the lounge window.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

That's more like it!

The road leads to the Maurienne valley over the back which is home to Val Cenis ski resorts amongst others.

This is where that road (obviously closed during the winter) comes out, at Bonneval sur Arc.

 

[ChrisC]

It looks really great! You are likely set up for a good week; hopefully, the temperatures will stay low, and the winds will not pick up. It looks like there will be a refresher storm later in the week.

It's impressive that you traveled across the entire complex to the Cascade Chair/Pisillas Glacier and back on a casual day. Yes, low clouds and bumpy pistes are a terrible combination.

One last word about our accommodation. We opted for a great value small apartment in Tignes Le Lac. There are restaurants, bars, a bakery and supermarket on the lowest levels of the building. It is only 100 feet to the Palafour lift and about 150 feet to the Toviere gondola.

I don't think there is a single resort in the US where you could stay slopeside for that amount.

My first few trips to Europe for skiing:

• Chamonix at New Year's 2004/5 - I think we had 6 people (2 couples/2 singles) in a 3 bedroom? Something semi-chaotic
• La Grave in 2006 - 5 guys in one room. Essentially a dorm. Maybe five guys in 2 bedrooms in Meribel-Mottaret

My point is that these apartments keep skiing relatively affordable, although some in France were not well executed.

We had a very good quality and value lunch at the Cascade restaurant.

From an earlier post:

On Mountain - Val d'Isere/Tignes - These two restaurants are owned by the same family and are much cheaper, self-serve, with great views/decks, and high-quality food. Basically, I could split a salad, pasta, antipasti, and wine/beer for two persons: 30-40 Euros. Plus dessert $ if necessary. The same family owns these:

• Cascade - Val d'Isere. base of Pisallas HSQ / Glacier. Link or https://www.seevaldisere.com/restaurants/la-cascade-restaurant-le-fornet-678962
• Les Marmottes - Val/Tignes Boundary. base of Borsat HSQ Link or https://www.seetignes.com/restaurants/les-marmottes-restaurant-val-d-isere-valley-60907

This is where that road (obviously closed during the winter) comes out, at Bonneval sur Arc.

I am not sure if I looked where that pass is precisely. In the sizeable off-piste zone - Col Pers (must be almost a mile wide - accessed from a pass off the Cascade chair - you can ski near the road deeply covered in snow, but make out a few switchbacks.

 

[Sbooker]

That's more like it!

This is where that road (obviously closed during the winter) comes out, at Bonneval sur Arc.

We plan to come back in September 2026 for some hiking to check out mountains without snow. We’ll base in that valley.

 

[jasoncapecod]

We are booking the Dolomites in Sept
Anyone have any experience hiking etc?
This is all contingent on if The Orange lets Putin take over Europe

 

[Sbooker]

We are booking the Dolomites in Sept
Anyone have any experience hiking etc?
This is all contingent on if The Orange lets Putin take over Europe

No. But I have been researching it because we plan to be in Europe in September 2026 for hiking. We’ll spend some time in France (including day hikes from Chamonix) and then catch the Glacier Express train from Zermatt to St Moritz.

Découvrez les Alpes suisses : voyage unique avec le Glacier Express

Découvrez les Alpes suisses avec le Glacier Express et profitez de vues panoramiques époustouflantes !

glacierexpress.ch

The final week will be in the Dolomites. It appears that a few nights in Selva Val
Gardena and a few nights in Cortina is the way to go. A car is a must obviously.

September appears to be a good time as all the lifts are still open as are the mountain restaurants but the heat of summer has usually moderated. I’m particularly interested to go in the WW1 tunnels in Lagazuoi.

Lagazuoi Tunnels - A Must-Do Day Hike In The Italian Dolomites | In A Faraway Land

The tunnel system within Monte Lagazuoi created during World War I, known as the Lagazuoi tunnels, is one of the most extensive in the Dolomites. Thanks to a

inafarawayland.com

I’m very interested in your research and your trip. I’ll be glad to take tips and advice once you’re done.

You should be fine with Putin. Poland will be next on the list after Ukraine and then the Balkan states. Italy should be safe for at least a few years I reckon.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

My friends in the Zurich suburbs have been urging me for years to visit during the warmer months (especially late spring and early autumn) like you two are planning; however, that would take away a ski trip.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

It snowed about 4 inches in Tignes overnight.

Bryan from Solitude is at Les Arcs and reported similar totals for Thursday and Saturday overnight. Even though it's not a huge amount of snow, he enjoyed his first taste of low pow competition compared to the Wasatch zoos.

 

[jasoncapecod]

No. But I have been researching it because we plan to be in Europe in September 2026 for hiking. We’ll spend some time in France (including day hikes from Chamonix) and then catch the Glacier Express train from Zermatt to St Moritz.

Découvrez les Alpes suisses : voyage unique avec le Glacier Express

Découvrez les Alpes suisses avec le Glacier Express et profitez de vues panoramiques époustouflantes !

glacierexpress.ch

The final week will be in the Dolomites. It appears that a few nights in Selva Val
Gardena and a few nights in Cortina is the way to go. A car is a must obviously.

September appears to be a good time as all the lifts are still open as are the mountain restaurants but the heat of summer has usually moderated. I’m particularly interested to go in the WW1 tunnels in Lagazuoi.

Lagazuoi Tunnels - A Must-Do Day Hike In The Italian Dolomites | In A Faraway Land

The tunnel system within Monte Lagazuoi created during World War I, known as the Lagazuoi tunnels, is one of the most extensive in the Dolomites. Thanks to a

inafarawayland.com

I’m very interested in your research and your trip. I’ll be glad to take tips and advice once you’re done.

You should be fine with Putin. Poland will be next on the list after Ukraine and then the Balkan states. Italy should be safe for at least a few years I reckon.

That’s pretty much our itinerary for the dolomites we plan on flying into Munich. My daughter wants to visit “the beauty and the beast castle “then we plan to drive to the dolomites.
A few years ago, my older daughter went on a hiking trip circumnavigating Mt Blanc
She said Chamonix was hopping during the summer.