LCC/BCC Conditions

[Tony Crocker]

With regard to the Ogden mtns I do think Snowbasin has good corn potential. Some of those lines BobbyD showed us in January could be really good. I will likely give it a try one of the days after I'm out of the Iron Blosam March 15-17. The unconsolidated snow at Powder Mt. is likely more problematic. I would agree to stick with LCC/BCC with the immediate forecast. After modest snowfalls predicted you will often bottom out on the subsurface, which might not be pleasant below 8,000.

 

[Admin]

With regard to the Ogden mtns I do think Snowbasin has good corn potential. Some of those lines BobbyD showed us in January could be really good. I will likely give it a try one of the days after I'm out of the Iron Blosam March 15-17. The unconsolidated snow at Powder Mt. is likely more problematic. I would agree to stick with LCC/BCC with the immediate forecast. After modest snowfalls predicted you will often bottom out on the subsurface, which might not be pleasant below 8,000.

What? No retort? :shock: Don't go letting something like a little topo map get in your way. :lol:

 

[Tony Crocker]

more easily accessed lines

That is part of Snowbird's advantage. Nearly all the high elevation runs Admin mentions at Alta have a high hike-to-skiable-vertical ratio vs. what you can get at Snowbird. Given the greater vertical of many of Snowbird's north-facing runs, I stand by the 2-1 comment.

The place is 500 acres larger (and you've missed a few key ones in your analysis), so of course it has more of everything.

In vertical variety the difference is perhaps more since Snowbird is on average somewhat steeper.

"More of everything" is the fundamental reason why I view Snowbird as the better mountain most of the time. Early season is the most common exception, as are storms where Alta gets enough more snow to make a difference in powder flotation.

More difficult access is viewed as a virtue on powder days to preserve the snow. Alta undoubtedly has a higher proportion of terrain with tedious access, though Snowbird has enough to keep people happy after the obvious stuff is tracked. Admin's tour of High Baldy my first day at the Iron Blosam last year was a good example.

On non-powder days (which is the subject of this thread) A Lot of Traversing Around is more often a vice than a virtue IMHO. Excessively high skier density is not good for snow conditions, but Snowbird by no stretch of the imagination has enough density to have that impact, especially on Admin's preferred terrain.

 

[Marc_C]

more easily accessed lines

That is part of Snowbird's advantage. Nearly all the high elevation runs Admin mentions at Alta have a high hike-to-skiable-vertical ratio vs. what you can get at Snowbird.

Helps keep the flatlander riffraff out.

More difficult access is viewed as a virtue on powder days to preserve the snow. Alta undoubtedly has a higher proportion of terrain with tedious access, though Snowbird has enough to keep people happy after the obvious stuff is tracked. Admin's tour of High Baldy my first day at the Iron Blosam last year was a good example.

On non-powder days (which is the subject of this thread) A Lot of Traversing Around is more often a vice than a virtue IMHO.

Don't confabulate hiking with traversing. And the High T is never as suckful as the Ho Chi Min trail at Snowbird. The trick with Alta is to learn how to enjoy the highly technical traverses as a run all on their own. (And there really is only the one that mentally scars people.)

 

[Admin]

more easily accessed lines

That is part of Snowbird's advantage.

A decided disadvantage IMO.

Nearly all the high elevation runs Admin mentions at Alta have a high hike-to-skiable-vertical ratio vs. what you can get at Snowbird. Given the greater vertical of many of Snowbird's north-facing runs, I stand by the 2-1 comment.

OK, let's try this again, for you're apparently in need of visual aids:

Twice, huh? :roll:

"More of everything" is the fundamental reason why I view Snowbird as the better mountain most of the time.

"Bigger" doesn't equal "better," although my wife may disagree. :wink:

Admin's tour of High Baldy my first day at the Iron Blosam last year was a good example.

West-facing, BTW.

And I'm disappointed that you failed to acknowledge the ample high-altitude north-facing terrain I cited.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Don't go letting something like a little topo map get in your way

The topo map shows the Snowbird runs I mentioned starting roughly equal to the top of Collins. So does that support the view that

Much of Snowbird's north-facing is at lower elevations,

???
:snowball fight:

Helps keep the flatlander riffraff out.

The sustained pitch of much of Snowbird keeps it fairly riffraff-proof IMHO.

Twice, huh?

Your maps are the same acreage, so I suppose your point is that Alta and Snowbird are fairly similar. Within that same acreage Alta has 2,000 lift-served vertical and Snowbird has over 3,000. Since skiing is more about vertical that would support my view of Snowbird's greater variety from a skier's perspective.

And I'm disappointed that you failed to acknowledge the ample high-altitude north-facing terrain I cited.

I did acknowledge it. 15-20 minute hikes/traverses for 500 vertical fall lines. Worth it for the last vestiges of powder, but on a warm spring day I'll get more skiing of the same conditions next door.

 

[Admin]

Don't go letting something like a little topo map get in your way

The topo map shows the Snowbird runs I mentioned starting roughly equal to the top of Collins. So does that support the view that

Much of Snowbird's north-facing is at lower elevations,

???

Even visual aids don't work??

I did acknowledge it. 15-20 minute hikes/traverses for 500 vertical fall lines. Worth it for the last vestiges of powder, but on a warm spring day I'll get more skiing of the same conditions next door.

Marc_C said it best:

Don't confabulate hiking with traversing.

 

[BobMc]

Socal,

Looks like we should have some snow coming in Thursday and Thursday night, the forecast calls for 5-9 throughout the day and night. I'm an optimist and call that 9 inches inbound! As to the rest of the thread, don't worry about numbers and percentages, go ski something and have fun.

 

[Admin]

As to the rest of the thread, don't worry about numbers and percentages, go ski something and have fun.

Good advice.

 

[Admin]

You edited your earlier post to add:

Your maps are the same acreage, so I suppose your point is that Alta and Snowbird are fairly similar.

No, my point is that Alta (2,200 acres) has a greater percentage of high-elevation north-facing terrain (uh....that's the pink stuff) than Snowbird (2,500 acres). Not that I give a rat's ass, actually, but I bring it up to dispel your closely held misconception.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The large pink blobs at the bottom of the Alta topo are half HIKE-TO, NOT TRAVERSE (Baldy Peak and Devil's Castle) terrain. More than half in terms of usable vertical.

In terms of what you can actually ski with reasonable effort, I don't think there is any question that more terrain retains a winter/packed powder surface in warm spring weather at Snowbird than Alta. I'd appreciate some input from someone else who skis these areas at less than a lopsided 6-1 ratio.

 

[silent1]

Hmm... I was planning on going to Powder Mtn this weekend and Snowbird. But if the rain line is that high, maybe I'll stick with the Cottonwood resorts instead.

Hopefully the snow moving in today and tonite adds up good.

 

[rfarren]

I've always disagreed with Tony about snowbird, and it's "superior" conditions. My experience tells me that the snow conditions tend to be, in fact, better at Alta. That's just my humble opinion though.

 

[Tony Crocker]

My opinion about the relative snow conditions at Alta and Snowbird is based upon my experience, which is mostly in March and disproportionately in warm weather. This is the specific condition where Snowbird does better. The difference is not huge, 10-20% more of Snowbird's terrain will be packed powder vs. spring conditions at Alta, but I've skied the areas on consecutive days in several seasons and found the difference to be consistent.

I already commented that with similar weather in January this year, conditions were exactly the same. And early season until the base gets up to 5 feet or so, no question Alta is better. So rfarren's observations may be correct depending upon the timing and actual weather of his Utah trips.

I know some of it is tram access to the upper mountain with a downloading option, but it seems eminently logical to me that Snowbird is the area that stays open to Memorial Day or later when there is not enough local demand to support more than one area being open. I'm fairly sure both are on Forest Service land, so I don't see why permitting would be different.

I still have a hard time understanding why both Alta and Snowbird devotees are so polarized. I may fall in the latter camp, but evaluated individually surely both are top 5 in North America if you're above intermediate level. It seems particularly counterproductive for Utah locals who can take advantage of the time-of-season variation to be as exclusive as some of them are. The AltaBird pass doesn't make much sense for a daily visitor given the scale of both areas, but for Utah season pass locals it's a no-brainer IMHO. Even with my time at the Iron Blosam and expressed preference for Snowbird my lifetime day count is 52 at Snowbird and 21 at Alta. Vertical difference is well over 3-1 due to the legacy of Alta's tedious lift system before the new Collins chair.

I'd be interested in BobbyD's observations, since he actually uses his AltaBird pass at both places on the same day periodically.

 

[rfarren]

The majority of my days in Utah have been after March 15th, and I've always found the snow softer and the vibe more relaxed at Alta. Perhaps, it is the lack of snowboards ( I don't know if it's true but I actually think snowboards can have a negative effect on conditions.) However, I've found that Devil's Castle and Places like that which require traverses tend to preserve conditions better at Alta.

 

[socal]

Back on topic for a second, things are looking a little more promising. Maybe tomorrow would be a decent day to be at Snowbasin? My thinking being if they get something like 10+ by tomorrow morning that should cover up most of the crusty stuff. On my powder day there on January 2nd they got 8 inches and it covered up much of the crusty base layer nicely.

SNOW LEVELS WILL LOWER TO THE NORTHERN VALLEY FLOORS TONIGHT AS COLD AIR SPILLS INTO THE AREA BEHIND A COLD FRONT. SIGNIFICANT SNOW ACCUMULATION IS POSSIBLE IN THE NORTHERN MOUNTAINS ALONG WITH GUSTY WINDS AND DRIFTING SNOW.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'll defer to the locals on powder calls but 10 inches over a packed powder subsurface will ski a whole lot better than the same over a subsurface that has been melt/frozen or particularly rained upon. Plus the normal pattern is for LCC to get ~50% more that the Ogden mts. Varies by storm though, so wait to see what's reported. If you're worried about competition, Solitude is the safest call.

 

[Admin]

It's a tough call. Alta right now is firmer than I'd expected it would be, and this storm will be packing quite a bit of wind relative to what little snow it will bring.

 

[Marc_C]

I'll defer to the locals on powder calls but 10 inches over a packed powder subsurface will ski a whole lot better than the same over a subsurface that has been melt/frozen or particularly rained upon. Plus the normal pattern is for LCC to get ~50% more that the Ogden mts.

A> This storm is going mostly north of SLC. Coupled with the wind direction, Ogden Mtns. are favored this time.
B> There is no packed powder anywhere anymore. We had a warm days Monday and Tuesday and a very warm day yesterday. The snow got pretty damp. Today's clouds and base/top temps in the 20's and teens stiffened and firmed up most everything. The only semi-decent snow we found was above 10K on North and East aspects. South and West aspects were an unpleasant crust-fest. One of the few times I wished I had sharper edges.

 

[socal]

2inches so far at Snowbasin none at the alta guard mesowest. Group wants to go to Snowbird, we'll see what the totals look like in the morning.