LCC/BCC Conditions

[Tony Crocker]

Let's bring Rog in and we can discuss the pros and cons of BCC and LCC...I'll go pop another bowl of popcorn.

That's not hard to figure out. The Solitude advocates place low skier density as the absolute priority.

I'm getting worn out by the other discussion. But I'm not the one who skis the areas at a lopsided ratio far out of proportion to their actual virtues.


Utah has a multitude of ski riches. I do not get the tunnel vision. Alta vs. Snowbird is not Mt. Baldy vs. Mt. High or Stowe vs. Loon. Or either Alta or Snowbird vs. Park City.

 

[Admin]

I do not get

Case closed.

 

[Marc_C]

I have the feeling this thread will be longer and more protracted than the Israeli/Palestinean conflict.

Perhaps, but there's a point hidden in all this that some seem to adamantly refuse to grasp. If someone prefers Snowbird over Alta, that's fine. Marc, Skidog, myself, et al really don't care. It's not like we're on the Alta Purity Committee or are offended or something. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and prerogatives, in ski preferences as well as where they choose to live.

But for dog's sake, base it on freakin' facts! What get's our ire up is when the preference is the result of misconception, stereotype, single data points, and outright fabrication. To say that Alta is "a lot of traversing around" so thus Snowbird is better completely ignores the fact that almost all of Snowbird's best terrain involves a traverse of some type to get to it. The same goes for the myths of "more sustained vertical" and "more north facing" terrain.

What gets really tiresome is when the same worn out, thoroughly refuted arguments and "rationales" are trotted out season after season.

Or putting it another way, as is often the case on a particular rock climbing forum: STFU, noob!

 

[Marc_C]

I'm getting worn out by the other discussion. But I'm not the one who skis the areas at a lopsided ratio far out of proportion to their actual virtues.
Utah has a multitude of ski riches. I do not get the tunnel vision.

1) You're only looking at a highly specific subset of possible virtues. Might there be some qualitative aspects that outweigh quantitative ones for making a preference choice?

2) Several of your quantitative-centric virtues have be refuted rather soundly, yet you still cling to them.

A quick example: I know someone who despises Snowbird. I had to dig pretty deep to get them to admit why, going through all the usual possibilities of terrain, traverses, cat tracks, lift arrangement, boarders, etc. It came down to a single item - the special Seven Summits line cutting lane at the tram and all the lifts. The sense of entitlement which that $10K pass represents pisses them off no end.

 

[socal]

Wow, lots of discussion when to be honest, Alta wasn't even a choice (snowboarders).

We went to powder mountain today, and it was okay. Powder country was unskiable due to ice but the obvious low angle stuff off hidden lake and the poma were in decent shape. 6 inches really freshened the place up. I think the wind must have blown the snow off powder country. All in all an okay day (even some untracked with a soft base)

This is a different group than I usually go with and I tend to defer to their (or one guys) choices. After skiing powder mountain today there is no doubt n my mind that snowbasin was the place to be(assuming only a dusting of snow in the cottonwoods).
Looks like the decision for tomorrow is snowbird. Anyone have any thoughts? I again think that snowbasin would be a better choice, especially snce we are going to be somewhere in LCC/BCC on sunday.

 

[ChrisC]

I am TEAM SNOWBIRD. TEAM SNOWBASIN. Yet Alta - Powderday.....they are #1.

I despise Solitude - it's over-rated, no more than 500-800' laps. Everything about it sucks but snowfall.

 

[Marc_C]

Wow, lots of discussion when to be honest, Alta wasn't even a choice (snowboarders).

Yeah, it devolved into the usual snowball fight 'cause some folks refuse to be swayed by annoying things like facts.

After skiing powder mountain today there is no doubt n my mind that snowbasin was the place to be(assuming only a dusting of snow in the cottonwoods).
Looks like the decision for tomorrow is snowbird. Anyone have any thoughts? I again think that snowbasin would be a better choice, especially snce we are going to be somewhere in LCC/BCC on sunday.

I agree with your assessment. Somewhere else (maybe even this thread) I posed earlier today from the avi advisory:

A heartbreaker of a cold front came through last night dropping a measly 2 inches in the Cottonwood Canyons and 5 inches in the Ogden and Logan area mountains. The Salt Lake area mountains will make a valiant attempt to catch up in the next couple hours, but the storm is rapidly dying. The hot tip for the day is to head to the northerly parts of the state where they have been getting a few inches of snow the past couple days in addition to this latest snow. South of I-80, you should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Despite that, I'll be at Alta or the Bird 'cause that's where I have my pass and I'm still dealing with this unemployment-induced cash-flow thing.

 

[Admin]

A couple of us are heading to Pow Mow this a.m. for the reasons discussed above. Around noon yesterday I called Eddie, as he was waiting for a Lightning Ridge cat. He said, "I just took one run in Powder Country...and I'm not doing that again!"

 

[icelanticskier]

Let's bring Rog in and we can discuss the pros and cons of BCC and LCC...I'll go pop another bowl of popcorn.

now, i'm sure most folks know that i spent one winter at alta and one at solitude. both ski seasons were average at about 500 inches of snow. i moved to alta the 1st time cuz of all of the lore, history, hypeand i figured that i may as well go to the best spot if any. when i started skiing at alta i was taken back by the crowds on pow days, long, early line ups and all of the hoo haw that turned me off to the place. sure,the terrain is great and all, but there's alot more to skiing to me than just terrain. untracked pow preservation, a more laid back feel, nearly zero liftlines at lift opening on pow days, even on weekends and not having to have much of a "plan" are all things that drew me to solitude and have kept me out of lcc for lift served ever since i last skied alta in 1996.

maybe i'm just jaded as i was always a 100+ day a year skier that lived in quaint little towns of the northeast that never had to deal with fri/sun joey traffic from the big cities. my complaint at alta coming from sunday river even though i skied les pow days in maine, they were pretty much mine for the taking more often than not. one thing that i can say for alta is it made me want to spend more of my time in the bc to get away from the crowds and i thank alta for that to this day. the days i've had in the east this year as well as last and the year b4 have been nothing short of epic with low crowds and overall feel that keeps my mellow from being harshed upon. i choose solitude and bcc for the overall feel, snow and terrain all wrapped up into one. just my.02.
the skiing has been deluxe out here. today will be day 71 for me, ending a 28 day feb ski streak or 34 days in a row and counting. great conditions from the beach to cannon to mt washington have made this feb one of my faves of all time. here's a link from the big hill just a few days ago. and to joegm, if ya live in lincoln, ski cannon. the bumps were truly epic on thurs. spring, soft hero everywhere on profile, hardscrabbles, paulies, zoomer. what a winter out here. glad i'm stickin around.
http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/show ... hp?t=11121
rog

 

[Tony Crocker]

icelantic was at Alta before the new Collins lift. In those days I would generally refuse to ski Alta on a Saturday or holiday; the lift lines particularly on Germania were unacceptable IMHO. It wasn't just me; Alta's skier visits were in slow decline over 5-10 years until the new Collins lift.

Might there be some qualitative aspects that outweigh quantitative ones for making a preference choice?

Yes. My observation in the warm conditions I get so often in Utah is that Snowbird has more terrain retaining a packed powder surface vs. Alta.

My instinct is to back up such observations with quantitative info. Which I did not do well in this case.

"more sustained vertical"

This one I think most unbiased observers would agree Snowbird has more.

"more north facing"

Here's where I ran into trouble. The warmer it gets, it has to be both north facing AND fairly steep avoid a melt-freeze. On say March 15 at 40F does a 25 degree slope turn to spring while a 30 degree slope stays packed powder? I don't know. I just have the impression over several trips where I've skied both areas and it may go back to the "more sustained steep vertical." Then we get into the hike-to terrain, etc. Main Chute is actually a paragon of a run that will stay packed powder as long as possible: perfect north exposure, sustained 41 degree pitch, even the towering walls on either side to keep the east or west sun off the snow. That's why I first went up there in 1990: the rest of Alta was 90% spring conditions that day.

To say that Alta is "a lot of traversing around" so thus Snowbird is better completely ignores the fact that almost all of Snowbird's best terrain involves a traverse of some type to get to it.

I'm glad we got that one out there. One of the Altaphile myths is "everything at Snowbird is so obvious that the snow gets degraded fast."

I think the impression that Snowbird is better in spring conditions is like the impression many have (such as ChrisC, who otherwise favors Snowbird) that Alta is better on powder days. Mostly subjective, but shared by many people. I have an abundance of experience in the spring scenario to form that impression, but sadly not enough of the powder days to have much of an opinion there.

 

[Admin]

I give up. (Got to get a smiley of throwing one's hands up in disgust.)

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Got to get a smiley of throwing one's hands up in disgust.

Actually, I think that Patrick's onto something. No matter which emotion he wants to conjure -- LOL, happy, sad, drool, rolling eyes, applause, envy, very mad, cool, liar, boo hoo -- they all get the same smiley treatment:


Try it, it works!

 

[Admin]

Try it, it works!

Tony

You're right, James! I feel better already!

 

[Marc_C]

Might there be some qualitative aspects that outweigh quantitative ones for making a preference choice?

Yes. My observation in the warm conditions I get so often in Utah is that Snowbird has more terrain retaining a packed powder surface vs. Alta.

My instinct is to back up such observations with quantitative info. Which I did not do well in this case.

I'll make another attempt.....QUALITATIVE, not quality. Get your brain away from numbers. Think in terms of gestalt, vibe, feel, emotion. Think about the person (who's story I related up-thread) who hates Snowbird because it makes her feel less valued than the guests that can afford the $10K Seven Summits pass which allows them to go to the front of the tram and lift lines.

"more north facing"

Here's where I ran into trouble. The warmer it gets, it has to be both north facing AND fairly steep avoid a melt-freeze. On say March 15 at 40F does a 25 degree slope turn to spring while a 30 degree slope stays packed powder? I don't know. I just have the impression over several trips where I've skied both areas and it may go back to the "more sustained steep vertical." Then we get into the hike-to terrain, etc. Main Chute is actually a paragon of a run that will stay packed powder as long as possible: perfect north exposure, sustained 41 degree pitch, even the towering walls on either side to keep the east or west sun off the snow. That's why I first went up there in 1990: the rest of Alta was 90% spring conditions that day.

Jeeze. If you want winter conditions, come in winter! If you keep visiting in spring, expect spring conditions! #-o

To say that Alta is "a lot of traversing around" so thus Snowbird is better completely ignores the fact that almost all of Snowbird's best terrain involves a traverse of some type to get to it.

I'm glad we got that one out there. One of the Altaphile myths is "everything at Snowbird is so obvious that the snow gets degraded fast."

It's true - all the terrain is obvious as are the traverses to get to it (with a minuscule number of obscure exceptions). A few Thursdays ago we got the rope drop on Road to Provo. That entire bowl, from Old Man's all the way to the Bass Benches and Bonar Pass was totally hammered within two hours. Had it been a weekend, it would have been an hour.

 

[icelanticskier]

icelantic was at Alta before the new Collins lift. In those days I would generally refuse to ski Alta on a Saturday or holiday; the lift lines particularly on Germania were unacceptable IMHO. It wasn't just me; Alta's skier visits were in slow decline over 5-10 years until the new Collins lift.

shorter lines from a new lift is a good thing. shorter lines because more people are on the hill tracking stuff up is a bad thing imho. i enjoy slow lifts and no lines with better pow preservation.
rog

 

[rfarren]

Jeeze. If you want winter conditions, come in winter! If you keep visiting in spring, expect spring conditions! #-o

Well said... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I also like Alta better because they don't allow snowboards. I think terrain parks are dumb too.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Think about the person (who's story I related up-thread) who hates Snowbird because it makes her feel less valued than the guests that can afford the $10K Seven Summits pass which allows them to go to the front of the tram and lift lines.

I don't give a crap about what someone else is doing as long the ski area is delivering what I want. Are there enough of these people to affect my lift line waits? Certainly not enough to make them longer than Alta's.

I think terrain parks are dumb too.

I don't use them either, but I don't see why I should be offended if someone else does.

I also like Alta better because they don't allow snowboards.

See above 2 comments. We :dead horse: in the Taos thread a few years back. There can be an effect on surface conditions, but that effect on areas that get 450+ inches of snow is trivial IMHO.

Jeeze. If you want winter conditions, come in winter! If you keep visiting in spring, expect spring conditions!

March 10 (average date at the Iron Blosam) is usually not spring at Snowbird. Nor at Mammoth either. As most of you know I enjoy spring conditions, or else I wouldn't ski Memorial Day or later every season. Or SoCal the past 2 weekends. My point is that Snowbird has a modest relative advantage over Alta in mixed or spring conditions. Just as many of you think Alta has a relative advantage over Snowbird in powder.

 

[Admin]

OK, it's time to be blunt, as even Marc_C's none-too-subtle approach didn't work.

Tony, what you're not understanding here is that there are some of us who don't live by statistics. Some of us don't give a crap which ski area has more north-facing terrain, which has more vertical, which gets more snowfall, which has shorter liftlines. Some of us prefer one over the other just because...for the intangibles, for the things that don't conveniently fit into statistical models.

I know that you don't think that way, but some of us do. Deal with it. And if you try approaching things that way it might even be enjoyable.

And it was rather fun pointing out the inconsistencies and occasional out-and-out falsehoods in some of the statements you tossed around.

 

[rfarren]

I agree with the admin here. I think my attraction is partly the lack of snowboarders.

We :dead horse: in the Taos thread a few years back.

Do you have a link to that? I'm interested in seeing what the consensus was on that.

I'm sure the effect on surface conditions are negligible at Snowbird, but the effect on the psyche is large. I can't explain it, but I love not hearing the "snowboard scrape" at Alta. It's that sound where the edge of the snowboard scrapes endlessly like fingernails to a chalkboard. UGH! I get the willies just thinking about it.

 

[Admin]

I can tell you this: we skied Snowbird to Alta and back to Snowbird on Sunday. Psalts and I agreed that the snow conditions were far better at Alta on Sunday, both the ungroomed and the groomers. I'm not saying why, just an observation from the same day at the same approximate time when our weather was less than stellar. Draw your own conclusions.