ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
Your Waterbury snow totals seem high to me.
I suspect it would have seemed high to me as well… but then I experienced it for myself. I can remember the first time I met my current next door neighbor Kevin, and he mentioned that we lived in a really snowy location. I was thinking, “Ahh, what’s probably really snowy to him isn’t necessarily all that snowy to me.” Well, he wasn’t kidding. Before our first winter, I estimated that we’d average around 100 inches of snow per season. I based that on the fact that Burlington gets around 80 inches of snow in a season, then if you travel another 10 miles east into the mountains, Cochran’s reports around 90 inches. Extrapolating another 10 miles east of Cochran’s to our location, it seemed like adding another 10 inches would make sense. I guess we can see the danger of simple extrapolation, since based on what I’ve seen up to this point the average snowfall at our location is probably around 150 inches. But, that’s one of the reasons I make such rigorous measurements – I don’t think many people really understand how much snow falls in some of the areas around here. It’s the same thing that happens with Jay Peak, people always seem amazed at how much snow they get, but if they just spent a year up there doing the measurements themselves they’d have a different perspective. With somewhere in the range of 40 to 60 storms each season, the snow is eventually going to add up. Below are the individual storm accumulations from the past three seasons:
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
Considering Mad River Glen @ almost 4,000 ft:
Snowfall to Date This Season
191 " - 231 "
I’d say relative to some of the other Vermont ski areas, Mad River Glen hasn’t had the greatest season from what I’ve seen. I believe they’ve even closed down at times. It’s also important to note that Mad River Glen is actually south of the Winooski/I-89/Route 2 corridor (where our house is located). Depending on the season, the snow totals can really fall off south of that line. There’s a reason that the annual snowfall averages for the resorts north of that line are generally in the 300+ inch range while off to the south they’re around 250 inches. Here are the current snowfall numbers for the season so far from north to south:
Jay Peak: 365”
Stowe: 320”
Bolton: 298”
---Winooski Corridor---
Mad River: 231”
Sugarbush: 261”
Killington: 263”
The last time I saw the season snowfall numbers for Smugg’s, they were running pretty close to Stowe’s, but unfortunately they don’t routinely keep their season snowfall up on their website like the other areas. Normally I would expect Mad River Glen to run a bit closer to Sugarbush, even though Mad River’s highest elevation is only 3,637’ at Stark’s Nest, but this year they just seem a bit low for whatever reason.
Also, it’s important to note that places can measure their snowfall differently. My measurements are made according to NWS standards, which means the minimum measurement/snowboard clearing interval is 6 hours. That makes my data comparable to what the Burlington NWS office records. However, some places measure their snowfall only every 12 hours, or even every 24 hours. Depending on what type of snow fell, longer collection intervals can depress snow totals due to some settling. In actuality, I can’t always be at my snowboard every 6 hours, so I’ll often have to go with 12-hour intervals. My snowfall totals would probably be a touch higher if I was able to monitor my snowboard more closely, but I’d say they’re still very close to what they’d be if I could measure and clear the board every six hours.
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
I spent 4 yrs in Hanover, NH / White River Junction, VT and we were always in an obvious snow shadow. If we got a 100" per year - that would be good.
My brother in Burlington - lucky if he saw 100".
Now that I’ve been actively following the Northern New England and Upstate New York threads on EasternUSwx.com, combined with actually living out in the mountains and traveling between Burlington and Waterbury many days, I have a much better perspective on regional snowfall. I’ve learned that the Champlain and Connecticut River Valleys are probably the two biggest black holes for snow in Northern New England, so whatever numbers they get, it’s pretty much uphill from there at almost any location. I have experience with the Champlain Valley since I lived there for many years and I’m still there a lot now, but for the Connecticut River Valley I can only go on the observations and conversations I see from the guys in that area on EasternUSwx.com. For the folks in eastern Vermont and western New Hampshire however, I get the impression that the Connecticut River Valley is somewhat like their version of the Champlain Valley in terms of snowfall.
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
Here is the annual Burlington snowfall
BURLINGTON, VT 19.3 16.5 13.9 4.2 0.2 0.0 T T 0.0 0.2 6.8 17.7 78.8 Annual
I would assume Waterbury - would be similar - not 2x.
This is only my third season monitoring snowfall in my location, but we’ve never run at 2X Burlington’s snowfall up to this point. Based on the ’06-’07 and ’07-’08 data I’d say we run at around 1.5X-1.75X. Here are the numbers and percentages above Burlington that we’ve been running for the current season and the previous two:
’06-’07 - Burlington 94.6”, Waterbury 153.4” (162.2%)
’07-’08 - Burlington 120.6”, Waterbury 203.2” (168.5%)
’07-’08 - Burlington 90.0”, Waterbury 173.1” (192.3%) Through 3/14/09
Even this year we’re not at 2X Burlington’s snowfall, although we are at 1.92X. The season isn’t over yet, but unless we have some very strange storms we’re going to end up with a larger differential than usual between our snowfall and Burlington’s. Part of what creates our differential from Burlington is the occurrence of upslope events, where the mountains and mountain valleys get hammered with snow, while Burlington may have light snow, no snow, or even blue skies. A couple of weeks back when Bolton Valley had their 72 inches of snow in 6 days, down below in the Winooski Valley we had 33.4 inches during that span, while Burlington had just 10.8 inches. So that’s an example of where we had more than 3X the snow that Burlington received for those two storm cycles. Nine times out of ten we will also get more snow than Burlington (maybe 10% or 20% more, but perhaps up to 50% more) in a typical storm, even without a major upslope component. That’s simply from being a few degrees colder, closer to the storm, or whatever. So it’s easy to see how the differential between Burlington and Waterbury snowfall adds up substantially through the course of a season. Ironically, we recently had one of those events that happen every so often where Burlington got more snow than we did at the house; thus the snowfall at the Burlington NWS location for the month of March (7.4 inches) is actually ahead of what we’ve received at our location in Waterbury for the month of March (7.1 inches). You can see that on the 2008-2009 Waterbury-Burlington snowfall chart below:
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
Just ripping some Internet data:
Waterbury, VT
Population: 4,915
Average Monthly Rainfall: 5”
Average annual snowfall: 49”
Yeah, that number seems a touch low, considering that 49” is far less than what even Burlington gets in a season, combined with the fact that we’ll often get more snow than that in a month:
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
And driving through Waterbury - I never thought it was a snowbelt. Not anymore than Montpelier, Norwich, Barre, etc.
I wouldn’t say Waterbury is particularly snowy compared to the other mountain valleys along the spine, but I would argue that it is actually snowier than the places you mentioned above, because those areas are farther east of the spine. Due to their more eastern location, those areas don’t appear to benefit as much from upslope snowfall events relative to places like Waterbury, Stowe, etc. Despite somewhat less snowfall however, those locations will often have deeper snowpack than Waterbury. This may seem somewhat contradictory, but I’ll explain why it’s not. I don’t know much about the snowpack in Norwich, but places like Montpelier, Barre, or even more appropriately areas like East Montpelier, Calais, Orange county areas like Corinth, Chelsea, and various Northeast Kingdom areas like Danville etc. will typically have deeper snowpack than Waterbury. There is not necessarily a direct correlation between snowfall and snowpack, especially when valley temperature volatility and incredibly dry upslope snow is involved. However, snowpack is probably the typical measure that a casual observer uses to estimate snowfall, and while it is generally a decent guide, it’s not always a good indicator. Those areas more in the eastern half of the state, despite not getting in much on upslope snowfall events, have better snow retention because 1) they are even farther east of the mountains and are generally less susceptible to warm air intrusions from the west that try to get past the mountains, and 2) some of those places are substantially higher in elevation, have somewhat cooler temperatures, and thus retain snowpack better. For example,
allenson, one of the typical contributors in the Northern New England threads at EasternUSwx.com, lives up in Corinth (Orange County) at an elevation of ~1,200’ or so as I recall. He is a co-op observer for the NWS, and I think he only records his snowfall in 24-hour intervals, but he is at around 120 inches of snowfall for the season based on his recent reports. Even though it’s a bit difficult to compare our snowfall data directly if he’s only recording once a day (probably a bit of settling compared to my 6 and 12-hour measurements) we’ve certainly had more snowfall here in Waterbury due to some substantial upslope events that don’t really hit his location too hard. With his area’s elevation and more eastern location, snowpack is simply retained better; his snowpack is currently at about 24 inches, while ours is only at 17 inches:
ChrisC":2pxrku8c said:
You already have a set of mountains in front of you....taking snow and any Lake Champlain enhancements out of the sky. Waterbury reminded me of a sheltered valley in a snow shadow.
Waterbury is a somewhat sheltered valley, but our location is actually a few miles west of the center of Waterbury near the Waterbury/Bolton town line (Washington/Chittenden county line) in the Winooski Valley. I’m not sure there’s a huge difference between the amount of snow that we get and what the center of town gets, but I think our snowfall is enhanced by a couple of factors. For one, we are nearly in line/slightly east with regard to the highest peaks of the spine. As moisture comes from the west (or east for that matter) it appears as though we get the benefit of it trying to squeeze through the gap in the spine. I think that’s one of the factors that gives our location enhanced snowfall, but another is the fact that our neighborhood is in a very sheltered location down by the Winooski River. We rarely get much wind, so when snow (especially upslope snow) falls, it has the chance to settle with incredible loft in the still air. We routinely get snow (especially with smaller accumulations) with densities in the 2 to 4% H2O range, and there’s no way we’d be able to accumulate snow with that kind of loft if there was much wind. That dry, fluffy snow (a.k.a. Champlain Powder™) is also what helps to enhance our snowfall relative to windier locations. It’s that kind of snow, much like lake-effect snow, that contributes to larger snowfall, but since it has so little moisture in it, it doesn’t actually do much for building the snowpack. This plays back into the differences in snowpack that we see in Waterbury relative to some points to the east.
There doesn’t seem to be major shadowing around here in the mountain valleys along the Green Mountain Spine. If that were the case, then one would expect the towns of Stowe or Morrisville to do poorly on snowfall, since they are directly east of the spine and far removed from either the Winooski or Lamoille corridors through the mountains. Our house is right down in the Winooski Valley, so I think we might avoid what little shadowing there might be, but it looks like the lower elevations around Stowe might even do a bit better than we do in snowfall. One of the occasional contributors to the Northern New England threads at EasternUSwx.com is
dmcguriman. He lives in Stowe, not at an especially high elevation as far as I know, and from what I’ve seen when he’s tracking snowfall his location usually gets more than ours by something like 10 to 20% (based on rough guesses from when he was displaying his accumulation data). There are places that get shadowed around here (I hear the guys on EasternUSwx.com often talk about how the Northeast Kingdom and environs get shadowed by the Presidentials) but it just doesn’t seem to be a huge factor for a lot of the communities along the Northern Green Mountain spine.
I have the snowfall, weather, and/or skiing for each storm in the '06-'07 and '07-'08 seasons documented on line, and those can be accessed through our
Waterbury Weather Page.
I’ll be happy to answer additional questions about the winter weather around here if people have them.
-J
