Western Weather 2017-18 and Later

[Tony Crocker]

Wow. How much snow has fallen there so far? They must do a lot of summer/fall grooming.

Targhee season snowfall is 76 inches, which is exactly its November average. Other factors to opening lots of terrain fast.
1) Topography: intermediate vs. steep, grassy vs. rocky. Jackson, Snowbird, Palisades take some time to get much open even when they get abundant early snow.
2) Number of lifts needed. Targhee only has 6 to open 100%. Vail has had as much snow, similar topography and has 9 lifts open out of their 34 total. In fairness Targhee has 2,602 acres while 35% of Vail's 5,289 is 1,851, not a huge disparity.
3) Historical track record. Targhee averages 72% open Dec. 1, which has to be the highest anywhere aside from Wolf Creek. So it's not unexpected and they are prepared.
4) As with the late season, and very important, is management attitude. As with closing dates, many areas won't adjust their opening dates or rollout of chairs/terrain before the Christmas holidays no matter how much snow they have. If you have a ton of lifts like Vail and Whistler, staffing is part of that equation. Those are areas to watch over the next month because both have lots of snow now and a good historical early season record. I'm guessing both are waiting for full seasonal staff to arrive.

For both early and late season, flexible operations are more likely with a drive-up population base, Mammoth being Exhibit A. Early and late season is part of the brand for Mammoth and Killington and early season is certainly that for Wolf Creek.

 

[Sbooker]

Targhee season snowfall is 76 inches, which is exactly its November average. Other factors to opening lots of terrain fast.
1) Topography: intermediate vs. steep, grassy vs. rocky. Jackson, Snowbird, Palisades take some time to get much open even when they get abundant early snow.
2) Number of lifts needed. Targhee only has 6 to open 100%. Vail has had as much snow, similar topography and has 9 lifts open out of their 34 total. In fairness Targhee has 2,602 acres while 35% of Vail's 5,289 is 1,851, not a huge disparity.
3) Historical track record. Targhee averages 72% open Dec. 1, which has to be the highest anywhere aside from Wolf Creek. So it's not unexpected and they are prepared.
4) As with the late season, and very important, is management attitude. As with closing dates, many areas won't adjust their opening dates or rollout of chairs/terrain before the Christmas holidays no matter how much snow they have. If you have a ton of lifts like Vail and Whistler, staffing is part of that equation. Those are areas to watch over the next month because both have lots of snow now and a good historical early season record. I'm guessing both are waiting for full seasonal staff to arrive.

For both early and late season, flexible operations are more likely with a drive-up population base, Mammoth being Exhibit A. Early and late season is part of the brand for Mammoth and Killington and early season is certainly that for Wolf Creek.

Do the mountains that have abundant snow but limited staff compact (roughly groom) the fallen snow to create a more resilient base even though they won't open the terrain?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Do the mountains that have abundant snow but limited staff compact (roughly groom) the fallen snow to create a more resilient base even though they won't open the terrain?

Staff is required to do that too. It's an individual decision of each area and not one I know about.

 

[tseeb]

Palisades is opening upper mountain on Sunday without the Funitel. See https://blog.palisadestahoe.com/operations/operations-expansion-8-lifts-added-to-sundays-lineup/ which includes "we will be adding 8 new lifts on our upper mountain to the lift schedule this Sunday, December 1" and these lifts (my comments):

• Aerial Tram (transport)
• Wa She Shu (transport and Mountain Run)
• Big Blue Express (S-facing, nothing very good)
• Siberia Express (some OK terrain) - 6-pack
• Gold Coast Express (OK for some warmup runs) - 6-pack
• Bailey’s Beach (beginner)
• Mountain Meadow (beginner)
• Belmont (beginner)

Not to be outdone Heavenly says on Instagram:
"The California side and the Nevada side were feeling pretty lonely so how about we connect them?

Tomorrow, we're adding Dipper Express, Skyline Trail, and Tamarack Express resulting in a full connection across the mountain from Cal Base, Stagecoach, or the Gondola! A full-mountain connection in November is incredible and is only possible thanks to the hard work and dedication of our teams around the resort."

 

[MarzNC]

Do the mountains that have abundant snow but limited staff compact (roughly groom) the fallen snow to create a more resilient base even though they won't open the terrain?

What type of terrain are you thinking about? Groomer trails get groomed once there is enough snow coverage.

For off-piste terrain, The Highlands Bowl at Aspen Highlands is boot packed. People can volunteer a certain amount of hours and get a perk of some sort, perhaps even a season pass. A small part of the terrain off the Kachina Peak at Taos gets boot packed. I think that's just ski patrol and staff. I've seen boot packing a little at Alta, but can't remember where. Don't think it's done on a regular basis.

Have you heard of "snow farming"?

 

[Sbooker]

What type of terrain are you thinking about? Groomer trails get groomed once there is enough snow coverage.

For off-piste terrain, The Highlands Bowl at Aspen Highlands is boot packed. People can volunteer a certain amount of hours and get a perk of some sort, perhaps even a season pass. A small part of the terrain off the Kachina Peak at Taos gets boot packed. I think that's just ski patrol and staff. I've seen boot packing a little at Alta, but can't remember where. Don't think it's done on a regular basis.

Have you heard of "snow farming"?

I’ve heard about snow farming and learnt about boot packing on this forum. I thought some ski areas might run a groomer over large portions of the mountain to compact the snow.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I thought some ski areas might run a groomer over large portions of the mountain to compact the snow.

That is definitely done, but you need a certain level of snowpack. If it's too thin and you bring up gravel it's counterproductive. In early season at Mammoth I've skied runs that were open (Face of 3, St. Anton) that are usually groomed but were not for that reason.

 

[EMSC]

I couldn't find EMSC's comment about the I-70 resorts dragging their feet until just before Christmas, but this Thanksgiving confirms that assessment.

You can add Steamboat as one of the worst offenders of slow openings no matter the snowfall. To the point that I'm quite certain that staffing and operations are pre-determined for early season with close to no variation from their internal plans.

 

[Tony Crocker]

You can add 2-4% to those I-70 numbers I posted yesterday. For example Game Creek Bowl opened today. But still if I were a Front Ranger I'd be annoyed at how much is not open after the biggest November since 2010. Oddly Steamboat is the only area in the region with below average November snowfall.

 

[Sbooker]

Can the good people at Open Snow see any sign of this high pressure breaking down at some point on the distant horizon?

 

[EMSC]

Can the good people at Open Snow see any sign of this high pressure breaking down at some point on the distant horizon?

I don't have access to OpenSnow, but can tell you snow is in the forecast for Colo for Mon/Tues of next week... So I guess that'd be a yes?

 

[Sbooker]

I don't have access to OpenSnow, but can tell you snow is in the forecast for Colo for Mon/Tues of next week... So I guess that'd be a yes?

I suppose so. Hopefully Utah sees some love at some point.

 

[jasoncapecod]

Can the good people at Open Snow see any sign of this high pressure breaking down at some point on the distant horizon?

the euro model starts to bring systems into Cali at the end of the period...so 2 weeks from now...of course you need to take a long range forecast with a grain of salt

 

[Tony Crocker]

This season so far there is a pattern of storms coming from the Northwest, just grazing Utah and hitting Colorado more. That's what's in that forecast for next week too, though overall much weaker than in November. If the pattern holds, perhaps sbooker should consider going east to Aspen rather than north to the Tetons. This is what we did on first year of Mountain Collective in 2013-14. Jackson looks lean right now.

It looked like Alta opened Supreme and is up to 69% open. The bad news is that Alta's base is a modest 30 inches and no other Wasatch area is more than 23% open. The worst case holiday scenario is when only Alta is decent. With a reasonable second half of December the other Cottonwood areas will hopefully be OK. The other Utah areas will need a bigger turnaround to be worth skiing before January IMHO based upon where they are now.

Vail (54%) and Whistler (62%) are gradually opening more runs. Acreage percents are probably lower because of no Back Bowls at Vail or Peak/Glacier/7th Heaven chairs at Whistler yet.

 

[snowave]

Brundage monthly data started in 2009. The 69 inches so far are the highest November.

79" at the Lakeview (top) measurement... and I know it's actually more than that, as that top gauge is chronically wind affected for measurements. Either way, the groomers have continued to be good, although today their was a tiny bit of slush on more sun exposed terrain. Inversions below, but temps the last couple days have been above freeing in the mountains. Pattern may mix up this weekend and further into mid month, especially for the PNW.

 

[Tony Crocker]

From my small sample size (3 days) I'll bet Brundage has very good skiing now. Incoming NW weather this week has a relatively high rain/snow line though Brundage's 5,600 base elevation is high for the inland Northwest.

 

[Sbooker]

If the pattern holds, perhaps sbooker should consider going east to Aspen

I think I'll arrange a back up plan so we have that option.

 

[Sbooker]

I think I'll arrange a back up plan so we have that option.

Done. I really hope I don't have to go with the Aspen option. Accommodation prices are eye watering. I'm praying for Grand Targhee snow!

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I really hope I don't have to go with the Aspen option. Accommodation prices are eye watering.

I've never skied/stayed at Aspen; however, I spent a couple nights in Rifle, approx. an hour away right along I-70. Cheap and cheerful places there were between $70 and $100. It was convenient for enjoyable days at independent ski areas Powderhorn and Sunlight. Moreover, you can brag to friends at home about your family's quality time in the hometown of MAGA firebrand Lauren Boebert!

 

[EMSC]

I've never skied/stayed at Aspen; however, I spent a couple nights in Rifle, approx. an hour away right along I-70. Cheap and cheerful places there were between $70 and $100.

Aspen doesn't have to be eyewatering IMO. I usually stay down valley in either Carbondale or Glenwood Springs. Much better prices. But you do have to either drive to the skiing or take the free bus system. If I were Sbooker I might drive to the base of free parking at Buttermilk then take the buses around (for Aspen/Highlands). Snowmass also has some free parking at the "Town Park Station"/Rec Center. But you better be fairly early in the am for those free options.