When (no BS) Do Eastern Powder Days Compare to Utah?

[chris062]

Looking at the Cannon website, I gotta ask - is that really a mountain? I don't believe that you can compare those little resorts back east to what we have here in the Wasatch. Heck, even the local Socal resorts are steeper and bigger than that flat hill! :dead horse:

There is really only one person claiming that it compares in any way (though james has eluded to the fact that he might agree at least in part).

I think he's just butthurt he doesnt live here anymore! :wink:

M

In that case I feel sort of bad for him. But I'll get over it as soon as I am at the Canyon's on Wednesday skiing through the fluffy Wasatch powder in the Aspens.
BTW. I know the Cottonwoods will have much more snow, but it's a much longer drive for me and I have a free pass to use before Dec 17 besides the local powder hounds don't show up at the Park City resorts! All the more fresh tracks for me.

 

[salida]

Woah... hold yer horses. Just cause Cannon didn't get snow today, doesn't mean it can't compare...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6529

 

[Skidog]

Woah... hold yer horses. Just cause Cannon didn't get snow today, doesn't mean it can't compare...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6529

Big difference is we dont have to wait 6 years for anything.

"I've been waiting for six years for there to be enough snow to do what we did today."

Doesnt compare!!!

M

 

[salida]

Skidog - I said "it doesn't mean it can't compare" .. IE it doesn't compare season to season, but if you hand pick days from each, the best days at each place do compare.

 

[Marc_C]

And with the current wet snow, rain, and ice in the Northeast, it might be another 6 years. Posting a comment from a ski discussion list:

All the way up from Western Mass and Kmart had no power. Some of the access road was out as well.
They had about 6 inches of extremely wet and heavy snow, topped of with considerable rain. It was still soft this morning, but with the temperatures expected tonight and tomorrow, expect cinder block conditions.

People are also discussing 8" of powder on Monday that became 4" of dense, wet sludge, capped now with a 1/2" of ice. Sounds like big fun. :shock:

 

[Admin]

And with the current wet snow, rain, and ice in the Northeast, it might be another 6 years. Posting a comment from a ski discussion list:

Posting a news story from FTO:

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/News/2 ... nd-Skiing/

 

[Tony Crocker]

I see I have a new ally in Chris062 in these discussion. Since he's new I would encourage a read of salida's reference viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6529 which I believe provides a very thorough analysis of Cannon.

I also repeat my capsule summary of that thread, Cannon is a close analogy to SoCal's Mt. Baldy in many respects:
1) Terrain quality
2) Quality of powder days
3) Rarity of adequate coverage/surface conditions to make it worthwhile to ski there
4) Easy access from a big metro area, resulting in
5) A small core of devoted fanatics who can cherry-pick the right days to ski there on short notice

Average snowfall ~175 inches is also similar. Baldy's volatility is way higher. The result is that Cannon has a few good days most seasons, while Baldy is a total loss in 30-40% of seasons, but in the top quarter of seasons tends to be good more consistently for 2-3 months.

MarcC has also noted the current ugly New England conditions, which were accurately predicted at the start of the week on the Whiteface thread.

 

[Patrick]

Skidog - I said "it doesn't mean it can't compare" .. IE it doesn't compare season to season, but if you hand pick days from each, the best days at each place do compare.

Agree with Salida.

However I've always said that the skiing in the West versus the East isn't comparable, you're comparing apples and oranges. One isn't better than the other.

The same logic goes on for comparing:

Alps vs West
Andes vs West
East vs West
Alps vs Andes
Alps vs East
etc...

For the Western immigrants folks that like to look down on the East, you just don't get it and didn't get it when you lived here. I guess you spent too much time living in the big city and stayed home to often.

 

[Patrick]

Average snowfall ~175 inches is also similar.

To take out the whole SoCal/Cannon thing out of equation...

I don't necessarily agree on snowfall as being the ultimate number. It only give part of the picture. What are the freeze-thaw or melts. Skiers traffic/density and a ton of other variables.

On the uniquely snow quality on the ground right now....

Based on JSpin's Waterbury and EC Ottawa Airport numbers.

JSpin snowtotal in Waterbury VT as of Dec 11th: 38 inches
Ottawa Airport Environment Canada snowdata as of Dec 11th: 30 inches

Regardless of surrounding terrain, I would suspect that snow banks and snow quality is currentlygreater in my backyard than at J's house. It definitely snows more in VT, but that higher numbers just says that it's snow more, which isn't necessarily correlated with snow quality or quality of skiing.

This arguments has been happening for years for the Montreal road warrior with season passes and cottages (more snow vs quality). The lines between Tremblant and the Laurentians (less snow, but colder) versus the Eastern Townships (more snow and precipation in general).

 

[Skidog]

For the Western immigrants folks that like to look down on the East, you just don't get it and didn't get it when you lived here. I guess you spent too much time living in the big city and stayed home to often.

for the record I dont "look down" on the East in any way...I just dont think you can ever "compare" them.

M

 

[chris062]

Everybody compares different aspects of skiing so it's not exactly scientific (except for Crocker's stat's). On the other hand, I have had some great powder days at Mountain High and Mount Baldy, but nothing compared to some of the terrain here in Utah, either size or steepness. Some portions of Alta are downright scary. That isn't saying that there aren't aspects of a local hill that aren't good and the report from Salida last March shows that, but I for one am glad I'm living an hour from Park City as opposed to Mt. Baldy. See video for details. [skitube2]http://www.firsttracksonline.com/modules/crpVideo/pnmedia/videos/1229108368_Utah_Skiing_2008.flv[/skitube2]
Keep in mind that this friend of mine lives a couple of hours from Tahoe and has been skiing there for many years and he says that the Utah powder has spoiled him for good! :sabre fight:
Also, I hope you guys all take this discussion lightly, after all I'm just killing time waiting for the snow to fall. The truth is a good day skiing is a good day skiing wherever you are!

 

[Sharon]

It's like comparing apples and oranges.

They are just different, but it is still skiing, and skiing a variety of conditions is what makes us better skiers.

I would have been happy skittering down a frozen Mtn Road at Whiteface. That's pretty much what we expect. But today, it is not like that and the folks skiing up there are probably having a blast.

I skied fresh powder today at Greek Peak. It was sweet. I had whole slopes to myself first thing and then I had to share and cross tracks now and then. I'm not complaining. I got to link plenty of turns in virgin snow. If you get the whole slope, then great, but it doesn't last for long and you have to be the first out there to get it.

When we get full-on powder days here in the east, people complain if it isn't groomed. To those of us to spend time in forums like this one, it is just unfathomable that so many people complain about having fresh snow. They don't know how to ski it. Most Greek Peak skiers have narrow-waisted skis, so skiing deep powder is very difficult. There are only a few who have the right skills and equipment to do it with ease. So, management usually decides to mow the whole thing down, and those of us who love the fresh snow are left skiing the same patch of natural snow and glades, over and over until they are tracked out.

If you go out west, local skiers don't even go out when there isn't fresh powder.

As I said, East vs West is like comparing apples and oranges. And it seems as though some of the prima donnas from the east who have to ski powder all the time have uprooted and moved out west to spoil themselves silly.

But if you ask me, when you get a good powder day in the east, it is usually so sweet and special that at the moment is seems like the best thing ever. But if it is right after 2 weeks of skiing deep powder in Utah, it may be a let-down. Everything is relative and depends upon an individual's perspective.

If you got to see any of Powderfreak's photos of skiing the pow at Stowe last year, then you know that it is totally on par with the quality of powder skiing out West, however, it is different because it is typically found in the trees, whereas a good amount of Western skiing is in wide open bowls, or the trees are much farther apart. It's a different animal, but just as sweet. Takes more precision for sure, but equally blissful and euphoric.

 

[Tony Crocker]

for the record I dont "look down" on the East in any way...I just dont think you can ever "compare" them.

I think this is an accurate comment.

Is eastern terrain as varied or have the scale of even midsized western areas? No
Is eastern terrain sufficiently varied/challenging that ski skills learned can be applied nearly anywhere else? Absolutely.

Are powder days anywhere in the East as frequent as the better places in the West? No
Are there some days when there is enough new snow and adequate terrain available to ski powder all day long? Clearly among the northern Vermont group, and with less frequency at some other eastern areas.

Again Mt. Baldy provides a suitable point of comparison. 3 of my top 10 lift served powder days have been at Baldy. So I totally get that a powder day on a similar mountain like Stowe/MRG/maybe Cannon can be as good as anywhere.

But the Baldy comparison cuts both ways. Baldy = best of the East in terms of terrain. But I would never try to argue that it's somehow better (or apples and oranges) vs. Mammoth/Vail/Whistler etc. just because it's my home turf and and I've had a few peak experiences there.

IMHO the easterners make their best case with respect to the powder days. The people in Vermont and probably Montreal should get more drive-up powder days than I do.

For the plan-ahead trips the case for the East is weak, due to
1) The significant probability ~1/3 of bad conditions.
2) The low probability of powder on any advanced planned trip, in which case the greater scale and variety of the West or the Alps become more important.
3) Several western areas still have much higher powder odds than anywhere in the East.

The reality is that skiers with a lot of flexibility in their schedules are overrepresented on FTO. The vast majority (even some of the nutcases like Patrick) have to plan ahead most of the time.

Thus the question I posed a few years ago in one of these threads: "If you lived in a region with no decent local skiing (Midwest, South) and were given 10 free plane tickets to ski anywhere, where would you use them?" If I could book the flight the day before I left, I might use one of the 10 to the East. If I had to book as much as a week ahead I would not use any to the East. Note that the transplanted easterners, who do know the potential of the areas when they are good, do not seem to be revisiting them very often. That's because in the real world you can't decide to fly in for a powder day on short notice, and they know all too well what they might get if they reserve too far ahead.

 

[Harvey]

(entire post)

Nicely said.

FYI Gore was killer today as well, I will post something.

 

[Patrick]

for the record I dont "look down" on the East in any way...I just dont think you can ever "compare" them.

I think this is an accurate comment.

Is eastern terrain as varied or have the scale of even midsized western areas? No
Is eastern terrain sufficiently varied/challenging that ski skills learned can be applied nearly anywhere else? Absolutely.

It doesn't compare because they are different. One isn't better than the other. Sharon is correct, apples and oranges. :dead horse:

Tony, you're always looking through measurable stats. Killington is probably the most varied and most terrain in the East. Is it the best in the East? No way, far from it. According to your logic, Alps resort, especially the big French resorts like Trois-Vallées, Val d'Isère/Tignes would be so far and superior to anything anywhere.

Again Mt. Baldy (...) at Baldy. (...) But the Baldy (...) Baldy = best of the East

:dead horse: ](*,)

For the plan-ahead trips the case for the East is weak, due to
1) The significant probability ~1/3 of bad conditions.
2) The low probability of powder on any advanced planned trip, in which case the greater scale and variety of the West or the Alps become more important.
3) Several western areas still have much higher powder odds than anywhere in the East.

I've add this debate here and elsewhere. So people would enjoy skiing powder everyday, I love the variation. I love everything. I would pick hard conditions on challenging places versus powder. I love pushing myself and enjoy it, don't give the same old stuff at the same area day-in and day-out.

The reality is that skiers with a lot of flexibility in their schedules are overrepresented on FTO. The vast majority (even some of the nutcases like Patrick) have to plan ahead most of the time.

No planning, just trying to dodge events on the social calendar. Last year I skied at least a minimum of once a week, EVERY week from something like the last weekend of November until late April. Didn't get many crapping days during that time. Last year was a record year for me, however I'm running at a slow start this year (very similar to 2005-2006 so far). Family trip, South America trip following by two months 6-7 days weeks at work managed followed by our usual crazy 3 months prior to Christmas plus the random crap and injury got me down and much needed R&R.

Thus the question I posed a few years ago in one of these threads: "If you lived in a region with no decent local skiing (Midwest, South) and were given 10 free plane tickets to ski anywhere, where would you use them?" If I could book the flight the day before I left, I might use one of the 10 to the East. If I had to book as much as a week ahead I would not use any to the East. Note that the transplanted easterners, who do know the potential of the areas when they are good, do not seem to be revisiting them very often. That's because in the real world you can't decide to fly in for a powder day on short notice, and they know all too well what they might get if they reserve too far ahead.

I'm surprise you didn't mentioned my 20% only.

That's right. 20% in the East, 40% West, 40% Alps (I guess I should add a other % for Andes and other). Why only 20%? I know the East and I've been to most top areas in my book, but I don't know the West or the Alps as much.

 

[icelanticskier]

It's like comparing apples and oranges.

They are just different, but it is still skiing, and skiing a variety of conditions is what makes us better skiers.

I would have been happy skittering down a frozen Mtn Road at Whiteface. That's pretty much what we expect. But today, it is not like that and the folks skiing up there are probably having a blast.

I skied fresh powder today at Greek Peak. It was sweet. I had whole slopes to myself first thing and then I had to share and cross tracks now and then. I'm not complaining. I got to link plenty of turns in virgin snow. If you get the whole slope, then great, but it doesn't last for long and you have to be the first out there to get it.

When we get full-on powder days here in the east, people complain if it isn't groomed. To those of us to spend time in forums like this one, it is just unfathomable that so many people complain about having fresh snow. They don't know how to ski it. Most Greek Peak skiers have narrow-waisted skis, so skiing deep powder is very difficult. There are only a few who have the right skills and equipment to do it with ease. So, management usually decides to mow the whole thing down, and those of us who love the fresh snow are left skiing the same patch of natural snow and glades, over and over until they are tracked out.

If you go out west, local skiers don't even go out when there isn't fresh powder.

As I said, East vs West is like comparing apples and oranges. And it seems as though some of the prima donnas from the east who have to ski powder all the time have uprooted and moved out west to spoil themselves silly.

But if you ask me, when you get a good powder day in the east, it is usually so sweet and special that at the moment is seems like the best thing ever. But if it is right after 2 weeks of skiing deep powder in Utah, it may be a let-down. Everything is relative and depends upon an individual's perspective.

If you got to see any of Powderfreak's photos of skiing the pow at Stowe last year, then you know that it is totally on par with the quality of powder skiing out West, however, it is different because it is typically found in the trees, whereas a good amount of Western skiing is in wide open bowls, or the trees are much farther apart. It's a different animal, but just as sweet. Takes more precision for sure, but equally blissful and euphoric.

that's a nice explanation. especially the part about our pow days being so sweet and special and best thing ever. when i go to the wasatch, i go to ski nothing but untracked deep pow and in my last 18 days there, only 3 have been new snow days yet i skied deep untracked all day every day because it's so easy to walk for it. when i lived there i skied untracked almost every day all season, 90% bc and yes, i spoiled myself, but skiing pow was so one dimensional. in the east i love to ski anything and everything and appreciate every bit of it a bunch more. i skinned up cannon early this morning b4 work to ski 5 inches of wendys frosty wowder snow and what a ride that provided, amazingly hero ride!. you can't even find that stuff in utah. lookin forward to more wasatch touring and maybe a solitude but, wouldn't move back out there to do the same thing everyday anytime soon. to each there own, been there, done that.
rog

 

[ChrisC]

I have skied most my life in the East. However, the terrain, topography & snowfall are just superior out West.

Yes, the East can be fun at times, but so can my red-neck uncle who shoots deer/turkeys/etc while seated on his ATV near Greek Peak, NY. And he mostly a pain in the a-- except for 5 days a year.

East Coast skiing mostly exists since it is near most-densely populated area in the US - the BoWash corridor. And this area has high enough incomes to build high-pressure air and water pipes over 70-90% of a mountain.

 

[icelanticskier]

However, the terrain, topography & snowfall are just superior out West

different terrain and topography at resorts, let's not forget about the presidential range which is comparable to most any terrain in the world with a very long ski season and snowfall is not always superior out west as jay peak vermont tallied the greatest snowfall of any ski resort in north america in 2000/2001 at 571 inches and over 40 calendar powder days at at least 12 inches each day. northern vermont gets more snow than many places out west most winters and our resorts in northern maine have just as good and better snow preservation as many.
rog

 

[icelanticskier]

East Coast skiing mostly exists since it is near most-densely populated area in the US

east coast skiing also mostly exsists from it's long love and heritage of the sport. the 1st organized ski races in north america were held on the carriage road on mt moosilauke in 1931 and the 1st u.s nationals in 1933 on a course which drops over 4000 vert from summit to base which is still a fun ski today. the 1st mechanical lift was used in quebec and suicide 6 vermont. the history of eastern skiing is so intimate and soulful and for many the feeling lives on.
rog

 

[Tony Crocker]

The population base was even more centered in the Northeast during the formative years of North American skiing than it is now.

let's not forget about the presidential range which is comparable to most any terrain in the world with a very long ski season

And unfortunately no lifts due to its vicious weather. If we add backcountry to the discussion, Eastern Sierra corn, Colorado 14er's and year-round Cascade volcanoes come into play and the Presis don't look quite as impressive.

jay peak vermont tallied the greatest snowfall of any ski resort in north america in 2000/2001 at 571 inches and over 40 calendar powder days at at least 12 inches each day.

Actually 2nd to Alyeska that year. Jay or somewhere in New England probably did have the most snow during the extreme (for both regions) 1976-77 season. I have snow data for 101 areas in North America. In the East only Jay (#40) and Smuggs (#49) are in the top half for average snowfall. Mt. Washington probably should be, as I suspect its snowfall is understated since most of it arrives there horizontally.

our resorts in northern maine have just as good and better snow preservation as many.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. But compared to high altitude West or Alps, not even close. If this were true, why does Sugarloaf barely make it to May 1 in good years when Mammoth runs to Memorial Day in bad years?