From River's reports he's not shy about venturing into sketchy terrain. I'm guessing 40 inches is where he thinks it's wall-to-wall skiing, but he probably knows a few stashes for more marginal snowpacks.
When (no BS) Do Eastern Powder Days Compare to Utah?
- Thread starter icelanticskier
- Start date
Not gonna wade into the East Coast v. West Coast debate (what are we, rappers?!), but the Mansfield boys sure found the goods this weekend:
http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/show ... post118034
(while I toughed it out on the hardscrabble (Sat) and deep, loose granular (Sun) at Killington - but hey, for $25/day, I ain't complainin')
http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/show ... post118034
(while I toughed it out on the hardscrabble (Sat) and deep, loose granular (Sun) at Killington - but hey, for $25/day, I ain't complainin')
J.Spin
New member
skimore":bucq6bk8 said:
I’ve always thought that it was Wes Wright of SkiVT-L that somewhat “formalized” that 40-inch rule, and I’m not sure when it was first mentioned, but I found a SkiVT-L post of his from November 30th, 1997 where he potentially unveiled it. He may have even been a bit tongue in cheek in that post as well. Anyway, I’ve always interpreted that rule as implying that once you get to 40 inches at the stake, you can be pretty sure that tree skiing is relatively “safe” throughout the ski areas of Northern Vermont. It appears as though the 40-inch rule will cover you for sensible tree skiing almost regardless of how the early season snowpack built up, even if we’ve had a ton of fluffy snow and there isn’t a huge solidified base from dense/thawed snow that has refrozen. But, in seasons where most of the base is comprised of consolidated snow (such as this season) you can probably get by on a lot less for certain off piste areas. I was actually surprised at how good the coverage was in Bolton’s “Enchanted Forest” tree area when we were in there yesterday, and that area is only in the 2,000'-2,500' range. The resort has even opened various expert tree areas, so although there’s only 25 inches at the Mt. Mansfield stake, it must be a rather substantial 25 inches to get so much off piste skiing underway. I’ve pasted in my current 2008-2009 Waterbury/Mansfield snow depth plot for snowpack reference.
J.Spin
Sharon
New member
I've always thought these E vs W discussions were ridiculous.
Why can't we all just agree that skiing any powder day anywhere is better than doing anything else.
oh, and speaking of powder days...these guys know where to find them at Stowe
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143780
Why can't we all just agree that skiing any powder day anywhere is better than doing anything else.
oh, and speaking of powder days...these guys know where to find them at Stowe
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143780
Very nice powderfreak-quality pics on Sharon's TGR reference.
This is when I use TGR: when someone on FTO has done the grunt work to find a worthy post. :wink:
This is when I use TGR: when someone on FTO has done the grunt work to find a worthy post. :wink:
Patrick
Well-known member
It is the same TR as the one posted in T4T. One of the guys in there is/was Salida partner, he's heading West for the Holidays to rejoint with his former Eastern partner in crime.Tony Crocker":1b78rj0j said:
Hopefully we'll see some of GPetrics's pics/TR here first hand. (I better be careful or I'm going to get dumped on about my promise pics TR from Mt Wash - life isn't easy some times - busy busy).
I'll respond to the other comments later.
/powderfreak
New member
Eastern Days do compare to Western Days sometimes...especially in the snowbelt of the northern Greens.
You've all seen my reports from Stowe/Mansfield over the years. If you're getting 300+ inches of snow and 100-inch base depths like Mansfield does,
there are bound to be some epic skiing in there somewhere.
The best days are late in the season when we've got a great base and then some massive upslope snowfall event happens. March 2006 was incredible because of that. We had a great base and then got hit with two 30-40" storms of pure fluff.
March 4, 2006
March 16, 2006
http://www.uvm.edu/~sbraaten/Stowe%2005 ... 20Food.MOV
I dont know why I thought of those days but we have plenty of days that would make a western skier happy. There's a reason why a lot of us stick around Mt Mansfield and the northern Greens in general.
-Scott
You've all seen my reports from Stowe/Mansfield over the years. If you're getting 300+ inches of snow and 100-inch base depths like Mansfield does,
there are bound to be some epic skiing in there somewhere.
The best days are late in the season when we've got a great base and then some massive upslope snowfall event happens. March 2006 was incredible because of that. We had a great base and then got hit with two 30-40" storms of pure fluff.
March 4, 2006
March 16, 2006
http://www.uvm.edu/~sbraaten/Stowe%2005 ... 20Food.MOV
I dont know why I thought of those days but we have plenty of days that would make a western skier happy. There's a reason why a lot of us stick around Mt Mansfield and the northern Greens in general.
-Scott
Dude, give me a break. 90+% of your TRs are "western level," whatever that means.
I understand that the whole reason for this extended squabble is that an easterner threw down the gauntlet and the westerners had to defend their terrain/powpow.
What I don't understand is the need to establish which ski turf is "better" or "worse" that the other. To me, comparing skiing in the East vs skiing in the West is like comparing apples and oranges. It would be like making the claims the "Mountain biking out West is better than mountain biking in the East" or "Hiking the Appalachian Trail is better than hiking the Pacific Crest Trail." Neither statement is true - due to geography, terrain, geology, etc, each recreational location has its own intrinsic benefits, beauty, and host of die-hard fans.
What makes a place good or bad for me is the experience I have while I am there. I usually have the best time when I put aside any expectations or criteria that I may bring with me from other places I have been, and simply try to lose myself in where I am right NOW, and enjoy it for what it is, without comparing it to something that it is not and cannot be.
When all is said and done, all it really comes down to is making turns in snow and being outside in the perfect silence that is winter.
What I don't understand is the need to establish which ski turf is "better" or "worse" that the other. To me, comparing skiing in the East vs skiing in the West is like comparing apples and oranges. It would be like making the claims the "Mountain biking out West is better than mountain biking in the East" or "Hiking the Appalachian Trail is better than hiking the Pacific Crest Trail." Neither statement is true - due to geography, terrain, geology, etc, each recreational location has its own intrinsic benefits, beauty, and host of die-hard fans.
What makes a place good or bad for me is the experience I have while I am there. I usually have the best time when I put aside any expectations or criteria that I may bring with me from other places I have been, and simply try to lose myself in where I am right NOW, and enjoy it for what it is, without comparing it to something that it is not and cannot be.
When all is said and done, all it really comes down to is making turns in snow and being outside in the perfect silence that is winter.
Marc_C
Active member
Oh goody. Another east vs west spray-a-thon. So just to swoop in, toss some fresh gasoline on the fire, and swoop out....
When was the last time a Rockies et al area had these kind of Xmas or New Year's Day forecasts (note the years):
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ALBANY NY 623 AM EST THU DEC 25
1997 ...WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY TODAY... .THIS MORNING...FREEZING
RAIN. A LITTLE SNOW AND SLEET POSSIBLE AT THE START. .THIS
AFTERNOON...OCCASIONAL RAIN. POCKETS OF FREEZING RAIN EARLY THIS
AFTERNOON. HIGH IN THE MID 30S. SOUTH WIND 10 TO 20 MPH. CHANCE OF
PRECIPITATION NEAR 100 PERCENT. .TONIGHT...CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF
SNOW SHOWERS. RAIN SHOWERS POSSIBLE THIS EVENING. LOW 30 TO 35. WEST
WIND 5 TO 10 MPH. CHANCE OF PRECIPITATION 40 PERCENT. .FRIDAY...MOSTLY
CLOUDY WITH SCATTERED SNOW SHOWERS. HIGH IN THE UPPER 30S. CHANCE OF
SNOW 50 PERCENT.
330 AM EST WED DEC 24 2003 ...A FLOOD WATCH IS IN EFFECT THIS
AFTERNOON THROUGH NOON THURSDAY... .TODAY...RAIN...HEAVY AT TIMES THIS
AFTERNOON. SOME FREEZING RAIN POSSIBLE THIS MORNING. HIGHS IN THE MID
TO UPPER 40S. SOUTH WINDS 10 TO 15 MPH. CHANCE OF RAIN 90
PERCENT. .TONIGHT...RAIN...HEAVY AT TIMES EARLY. LOWS 40 TO 45. SOUTH
WINDS 5 TO 15 MPH. CHANCE OF RAIN 90 PERCENT. .CHRISTMAS...RAIN
SHOWERS LIKELY IN THE MORNING...THEN SNOW OR RAIN SHOWERS LIKELY IN
THE AFTERNOON. AN INCH OR LESS OF SNOW ACCUMULATION. TEMPERATURES
FALLING INTO THE UPPER 30S. LIGHT AND VARIABLE WINDS. CHANCE OF
PRECIPITATION 70 PERCENT.
400 AM EST THU DEC 23 2004 ...HIGH WIND WARNING IN EFFECT FOR EXPOSED
HILLS ABOVE 1500 FEET FROM NOON UNTIL 10 PM... .TODAY...BECOMING VERY
WINDY. RAIN DEVELOPING...ESPECIALLY THIS AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE MID
TO UPPER 40S. SOUTH WINDS AROUND 10 MPH INCREASING TO 15 TO 30 MPH BUT
25 TO 40 MPH WITH GUSTS TO 60 MPH FOR EXPOSED HILLS ABOVE 1500
FEET. .TONIGHT...RAIN EARLY TAPERING TO MIXED RAIN AND SNOW SHOWERS
BEFORE ENDING PRIOR TO MIDNIGHT...THEN BECOMING PARTLY CLOUDY. VERY
WINDY EARLY. LOWS IN THE TEENS. SOUTHWEST WINDS 15 TO 30 MPH BUT 25 TO
40 MPH AND GUSTS TO 60 MPH FOR EXPOSED HILLS ABOVE 1500 FEET
EARLY...BECOMING WEST AND DIMINISHING TO 10 TO 20 MPH.
400 AM EST SUN DEC 25 2005 .TODAY...MOSTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF
LIGHT RAIN OR LIGHT FREEZING RAIN THIS MORNING...THEN PARTLY SUNNY
EARLY THIS AFTERNOON. CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF RAIN LATE. HIGHS IN THE
UPPER 30S. LIGHT AND VARIABLE WINDS. CHANCE OF PRECIPITATION 40
PERCENT. .TONIGHT...RAIN WITH PATCHES OF FREEZING RAIN POSSIBLE AND
AREAS OF FOG. LOWS IN THE LOWER 30S. SOUTHEAST WINDS AROUND 5
MPH. .MONDAY...RAIN OR SNOW IN THE MORNING...THEN SNOW LIKELY IN THE
AFTERNOON. SNOW ACCUMULATION A DUSTING TO 2 INCHES. HIGHS IN THE MID
30S. NORTHEAST WINDS AROUND 5 MPH.
358 AM EST SUN DEC 31 2006 .THE HIGHER SUMMITS FORECAST FOR VERMONT
AND NORTHERN NEW YORK... .TODAY...PARTLY CLOUDY EARLY WITH SUMMITS IN
AND OUT OF CLOUDS WITH SCATTERED FLURRIES. SUNNY FROM MID MORNING ON.
HIGHS IN THE MID 20S. NORTH WINDS 25 TO 35 MPH...DECREASING TO 15 TO
25 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON. .MONDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS.
SLEET...OR RAIN IN THE MORNING...THEN LIGHT RAIN OR DRIZZLE IN THE
AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 30S. SOUTH WINDS 45 TO 55 MPH.
326 PM EST SAT DEC 22 2007 . THE HIGHER SUMMITS FORECAST FOR VERMONT
AND NORTHERN NEW YORK... .SUNDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS. RAIN
SHOWERS LIKELY WITH A SLIGHT CHANCE OF LIGHT FREEZING RAIN IN THE
MORNING...THEN RAIN IN THE AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE LOWER 40S. SOUTH
WINDS 45 TO 60 MPH... INCREASING TO 65 TO 80 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON.
When was the last time a Rockies et al area had these kind of Xmas or New Year's Day forecasts (note the years):
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ALBANY NY 623 AM EST THU DEC 25
1997 ...WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY TODAY... .THIS MORNING...FREEZING
RAIN. A LITTLE SNOW AND SLEET POSSIBLE AT THE START. .THIS
AFTERNOON...OCCASIONAL RAIN. POCKETS OF FREEZING RAIN EARLY THIS
AFTERNOON. HIGH IN THE MID 30S. SOUTH WIND 10 TO 20 MPH. CHANCE OF
PRECIPITATION NEAR 100 PERCENT. .TONIGHT...CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF
SNOW SHOWERS. RAIN SHOWERS POSSIBLE THIS EVENING. LOW 30 TO 35. WEST
WIND 5 TO 10 MPH. CHANCE OF PRECIPITATION 40 PERCENT. .FRIDAY...MOSTLY
CLOUDY WITH SCATTERED SNOW SHOWERS. HIGH IN THE UPPER 30S. CHANCE OF
SNOW 50 PERCENT.
330 AM EST WED DEC 24 2003 ...A FLOOD WATCH IS IN EFFECT THIS
AFTERNOON THROUGH NOON THURSDAY... .TODAY...RAIN...HEAVY AT TIMES THIS
AFTERNOON. SOME FREEZING RAIN POSSIBLE THIS MORNING. HIGHS IN THE MID
TO UPPER 40S. SOUTH WINDS 10 TO 15 MPH. CHANCE OF RAIN 90
PERCENT. .TONIGHT...RAIN...HEAVY AT TIMES EARLY. LOWS 40 TO 45. SOUTH
WINDS 5 TO 15 MPH. CHANCE OF RAIN 90 PERCENT. .CHRISTMAS...RAIN
SHOWERS LIKELY IN THE MORNING...THEN SNOW OR RAIN SHOWERS LIKELY IN
THE AFTERNOON. AN INCH OR LESS OF SNOW ACCUMULATION. TEMPERATURES
FALLING INTO THE UPPER 30S. LIGHT AND VARIABLE WINDS. CHANCE OF
PRECIPITATION 70 PERCENT.
400 AM EST THU DEC 23 2004 ...HIGH WIND WARNING IN EFFECT FOR EXPOSED
HILLS ABOVE 1500 FEET FROM NOON UNTIL 10 PM... .TODAY...BECOMING VERY
WINDY. RAIN DEVELOPING...ESPECIALLY THIS AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE MID
TO UPPER 40S. SOUTH WINDS AROUND 10 MPH INCREASING TO 15 TO 30 MPH BUT
25 TO 40 MPH WITH GUSTS TO 60 MPH FOR EXPOSED HILLS ABOVE 1500
FEET. .TONIGHT...RAIN EARLY TAPERING TO MIXED RAIN AND SNOW SHOWERS
BEFORE ENDING PRIOR TO MIDNIGHT...THEN BECOMING PARTLY CLOUDY. VERY
WINDY EARLY. LOWS IN THE TEENS. SOUTHWEST WINDS 15 TO 30 MPH BUT 25 TO
40 MPH AND GUSTS TO 60 MPH FOR EXPOSED HILLS ABOVE 1500 FEET
EARLY...BECOMING WEST AND DIMINISHING TO 10 TO 20 MPH.
400 AM EST SUN DEC 25 2005 .TODAY...MOSTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF
LIGHT RAIN OR LIGHT FREEZING RAIN THIS MORNING...THEN PARTLY SUNNY
EARLY THIS AFTERNOON. CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF RAIN LATE. HIGHS IN THE
UPPER 30S. LIGHT AND VARIABLE WINDS. CHANCE OF PRECIPITATION 40
PERCENT. .TONIGHT...RAIN WITH PATCHES OF FREEZING RAIN POSSIBLE AND
AREAS OF FOG. LOWS IN THE LOWER 30S. SOUTHEAST WINDS AROUND 5
MPH. .MONDAY...RAIN OR SNOW IN THE MORNING...THEN SNOW LIKELY IN THE
AFTERNOON. SNOW ACCUMULATION A DUSTING TO 2 INCHES. HIGHS IN THE MID
30S. NORTHEAST WINDS AROUND 5 MPH.
358 AM EST SUN DEC 31 2006 .THE HIGHER SUMMITS FORECAST FOR VERMONT
AND NORTHERN NEW YORK... .TODAY...PARTLY CLOUDY EARLY WITH SUMMITS IN
AND OUT OF CLOUDS WITH SCATTERED FLURRIES. SUNNY FROM MID MORNING ON.
HIGHS IN THE MID 20S. NORTH WINDS 25 TO 35 MPH...DECREASING TO 15 TO
25 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON. .MONDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS.
SLEET...OR RAIN IN THE MORNING...THEN LIGHT RAIN OR DRIZZLE IN THE
AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 30S. SOUTH WINDS 45 TO 55 MPH.
326 PM EST SAT DEC 22 2007 . THE HIGHER SUMMITS FORECAST FOR VERMONT
AND NORTHERN NEW YORK... .SUNDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS. RAIN
SHOWERS LIKELY WITH A SLIGHT CHANCE OF LIGHT FREEZING RAIN IN THE
MORNING...THEN RAIN IN THE AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE LOWER 40S. SOUTH
WINDS 45 TO 60 MPH... INCREASING TO 65 TO 80 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON.
In World War I, on Christmas day, they Germans heard the English singing Christmas carols from the trenches. They got together and had some cheer and shared stories were friendly before they went back to killing each other the next day.
"Oh come all ye faithful..."
"Oh come all ye faithful..."
Marc_C
Active member
Harvey44":3elca9gh said:
Maybe we're just a little cranky since almost no one is skiing today at Alta/Bird, despite the big storm:
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7388
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7389
MarcC does provide rather compelling evidence. It has now rained during the peak Christmas holiday in northern New England 5 years in a row. Anyone who advance schedules into this time frame at premium prices to ski areas with that kind of track record is pretty clueless IMHO.
This is in great contrast to what we were reading a week ago. But those people either daytripped or put the trip together on a week's notice. And since it was before Christmas it was uncrowded and probably a lot cheaper.
This is in great contrast to what we were reading a week ago. But those people either daytripped or put the trip together on a week's notice. And since it was before Christmas it was uncrowded and probably a lot cheaper.
Actually, our trip was booked two months in advance, but sometimes you get lucky. If you're an, ahem, conditions princess, Whiteface is not a good place to roll the dice, but should you get hosed, there are a lot of other things to do there.
joegm
New member
while i appreciate ice's enthusiasm and as one who has tossed a few bombs on this board, my only comment on this almost out of control thread is , for me, this isn't even worth discussing....the admin , crocker and their cohorts couldn't lose this one if they tried....this is single A baseball vs major league ball....single A has a lot of value and good points....but to compare it to MLB is just silly.....i've accepted my fate in life as a east coast snow chaser....maybe someday i'll be playing in the big leagues when im retired and an old man....i've tried to stop comparing east and west cause if i do, as i used to , i just get pissed off cause the fact is here sucks compared to out there....look at what has gone on here in the last 48 hours... it's gone from nice cut up powder to garbage....i don't think the admin and the boys are dealing with BS like this out there very much....i just don't think there is any reasonable argument to the contrary.... that's why i stopped doing so a few years ago....i'm just trying each day to take this east coast single a ball and enjoy it as much as i can.....but i know in my heart the real skiing is west of the mississippi river... just my opinion
Patrick
Well-known member
Well, I guess we are at the point where we might need to import a few others icons for throlls from the West.
Are you calling Tony old???
I know that Loon's sucks, but... :-"
Okay, folks...all in good fun. Happy Holidays!!! Hope you enjoy what you have. I don't have any regrets skiing where I ski or where I live. I personally prefer diversity than 100% Blue Sky or 100% powder...skiing is an outdoor sport. You have to deal with the elements, if you didn't...skiing would be like Tennis (okay, some Tennis purist might talk about clay or grass..whatever) or another sport where diversity is reduced to a minimum. Unfortunately many in the industry seem to disagree about the diversity, but that is a whole other debate. :sabre fight:
joegm":2yikiyc2 said:
Are you calling Tony old???
joegm":2yikiyc2 said:
I know that Loon's sucks, but... :-"
Okay, folks...all in good fun. Happy Holidays!!! Hope you enjoy what you have. I don't have any regrets skiing where I ski or where I live. I personally prefer diversity than 100% Blue Sky or 100% powder...skiing is an outdoor sport. You have to deal with the elements, if you didn't...skiing would be like Tennis (okay, some Tennis purist might talk about clay or grass..whatever) or another sport where diversity is reduced to a minimum. Unfortunately many in the industry seem to disagree about the diversity, but that is a whole other debate. :sabre fight:
Patrick
Well-known member
J.Spin":99x3reji said:
Hi J,
I agree on your points and perspective, however I was debating Tony's arguments about "how can there be any good skiing/long season/whatever if the annual number is so low. He's used this argument regarding ski areas outside Northern VT and ski areas in the East in general. That is why I've used the Ottawa/Waterbury analogy. Icelandic has argued about the great skiing at Sugarloaf while I've added about the potential long seasons at MSA or Tremblant (regardless of season closures). As I mentioned, a Montrealer looking into getting a season pass/cottage always debates between Laurentians and the Townships (Jay/Smuggs included). Skiers driven by best coverage will likely choose the Laurentians while Powderhounds will go toward places like Sutton or Jay. That is why I find that Montreal is such a great location, access to two different type of weather pattern/climate.
J.Spin":99x3reji said:
Yes, it does...but I wanted to simplify the table.