Europe 24/25

[skiandgolfnut]

The worst case scenario in the Alps is the bad weather/bad vis days, especially if there is little terrain below tree line (Val Thorens being a good example) or if it's raining at low elevation. With this kind of forecast, we take off in the car and do something other than ski. That was Liz' first trip in 2001, and if you are on a typical one week package deal you are kind of stuck.

Reading all of the TRs from the last few days and how this discussion has evolved I think ultimately I come back to this point as being where I fall. I understand EMSC's feelings on the conditions, especially having local mountains to compare to. But as a New Yorker, who could equally get skunked in terms of snow quality on a preplanned trip out west (as I did a few weeks ago in Big Sky) or to Europe, I still think only a poor vis day in Europe could truly spoil my time. I have now had multiple trips to Europe effected by warm weather and low quality snow. Ultimately I still get a kick out of everything else and a blue bird day cruising and eating/drinking around Europe at this point in my life probably interests me more than a powder day out west. I understand why on a forum like this that might be the minority opinion and certainly understand why anyone getting poor vis in Europe would come away thinking it to be a horribly overrated experience.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I still get a kick out of everything else and a blue bird day cruising and eating/drinking around Europe at this point in my life probably interests me more than a powder day out west

Never argue with a powder day no matter where it is (I've had memorable ones even at small joints like Greek Peak, NY); however, as a non-expert who doesn't require badass terrain, I share this general view.

only a poor vis day in Europe could truly spoil my time

In addition to poor vis, a spoiler for me is skiing at many Euro industrial resorts during a long drought with thousands of skiers compacting the pistes into concrete (to be fair, I've experienced that in the U.S., both east and west). There are exceptions such as Serre Chevalier. That said; as a consolation prize, the views are always sublime, the on-mountain food far better and less expensive than the U.S., and it's a unique experience to "travel" many miles across lift-served terrain. Off the top of my head, the widest I've experienced is 11 miles at Hochkönig and the 3V followed by Val d'Isere in second place with ten miles.

I understand why on a forum like this that might be the minority opinion

FTO is a very, euh, intimate forum these days -- 22 users who've posted at least three times this season (I just counted!) -- so don't assume that it's a minority opinion.

 

[skiandgolfnut]

thousands of skiers compacting the pistes into concrete (to be fair, I've experienced that in the U.S., both east and west). There are exceptions such as Serre Chevalier.

The crowded pistes are definitely pretty brutal. Not just the snow quality but the sheer amount of people—it’s not even skiing sometimes. What goes on at St Anton is pretty crazy. I’m very much on the opposite circuit as you, trying to hit all the larger places that I’ve never been to and hopefully one day then move onto the smaller. I’ve found that by targeting places farther from the airport, places that generally have a reputation of being fancier, hitting secondary mountains within complexes, skiing weekdays and avoiding the euro school holidays at all costs this can be mitigated. IE zermatt, st moritz (particularly corvatsch), lech (over st Anton). Same reason why aspen is tolerable holiday weeks and summit county gets clobbered.

And Ill add, while it might be harder to time and happen less frequently and consistently than out west, hitting Europe just right (visibility, snow, crowds) remains an absurd value proposition and offers cat/heli like off piste experiences without needing to do much heavy lifting. I think for those of us on here that have had that experience a few times we understand the potential upside that exists when the stars align.

 

[ChrisC]

I don't try to encourage East Coast friends to come to Tahoe unless you can set expectations. This winter, 24/25 would have been bad >>50% of the time: lack of snow early, crowds/snow at holidays, no snow for a month, etc.

Europe is often more consistent than CA (or at least on par) - maybe not coverage, but snow preservation, etc. Even with a base, high temps (& moisture) can kill finding any chalky snow at Squaw-Alpine except on maybe 10% of areas.

I will finally use up my IKON single tickets this weekend at Palisades Tahoe. This week, 50" of decent-quality snow motivated me.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

hitting Europe just right (visibility, snow, crowds) remains an absurd value proposition and offers cat/heli like off piste experiences

Let's not forget about the unique experience of guided, in-bounds avalanches!

 

[skiandgolfnut]

Let's not forget about the unique experience of guided, in-bounds avalanches!

You know Im addicted to Europe when I still am itching to get back after nearly getting killed!

 

[Tony Crocker]

I don't try to encourage East Coast friends to come to Tahoe unless you can set expectations. This winter, 24/25 would have been bad >>50% of the time: lack of snow early, crowds/snow at holidays, no snow for a month, etc.

Europe is often more consistent than CA (or at least on par) - maybe not coverage, but snow preservation, etc. Even with a base, high temps (& moisture) can kill finding any chalky snow at Squaw-Alpine except on maybe 10% of areas.

I have strongly suspected this. I have always cherry picked my days to ski Palisades, and to some extent Heavenly also. Thus Liz has a somewhat unrealistic rosy view of both areas. I know that the Palisades base has had a lot of rain this season.The March storms have really been the only good ones at Tahoe to low elevation. At the end of this season I'll publish a graph of low vs. high elevation snowfall at Palisades.

Every decade Mammoth's snow conditions advantage over most of Tahoe seems to grow.

I should try to publish some Euro vs, western North America comparisons. I think I did that for snowfall standard deviations but don't recall where.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

You know I'm addicted to Europe when I still am itching to get back after nearly getting killed!

As long as you don't die or are otherwise maimed, you have a cocktail-party story for the ages!

 

[Sbooker]

I finished up my time with Snoworks on Friday just gone. It was warm with no freeze at 2000 metres overnight. It was overcast and windy so conditions weren’t great.
Euan took us to north facing pitches with rock features. We were intending to ski the ‘north face of the Borsat’ which involves a short hike. I’ve never skied that route and was very keen to do so but they shut the Borsat lift due to high winds just as we were about to get on.
You people are all experts and obviously don’t need the little bits of instruction with your guiding so Snoworks would probably not suit you all personally but if you know a gaper who is looking to ski off piste in relative safety but at the same time have fun and get some pointers to improve I can’t recommend them highly enough.

^ I really like skiing through and surrounded by rock features and gullies.
On another note. For the third time I have suffered a badly ulcerated lower lip after staying in France at 2000 metres elevation. I have never experienced it on many other ski holidays. Kylie thinks it is a combination of atmospheric conditions coupled with wind. I just can’t work it out because I’ve never experienced the problem in North America or Japan even when staying at elevation (Aspen, Mammoth etc).
Anyway we are now in Avignon doing some tourist stuff. It’s a lovely walled medieval city on the Rhone.

^The ski resort hashtag signs are now spreading to towns it seems.

 

[berkshireskier]

We were in the south of France last October for a wedding and spent the better part of a day in Avignon. Yes, it's a beautiful medieval city with substantial walls and definitely worth a visit.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

You people are all experts

Not true. A number of us don't qualify.

^The ski resort hashtag signs are now spreading to towns it seems.

I'm not a fan of these signs; however, they're clearly a hit with tourists so mission accomplished. I've never made it to Avignon, looks nice!

You can't beat the ski-in/out access to excellent terrain and snow but wow, you can't put lipstick on this village.

 

[Sbooker]

you can't put lipstick on this village.

Agreed. Le Lac (the village a bit further down) has less high rise style buildings. But anyway - just look up.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

anyway - just look up.

I wouldn't pay what I assume to be the typical rate there; however, your recent visit was such a deal that I'd "look up" for that.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Val d’Isere vs. Tignes for ambience is sort of like Aspen vs. Snowmass. In both cases you pay up to stay in the historic resort town.

 

[Sbooker]

Val d’Isere vs. Tignes for ambience is sort of like Aspen vs. Snowmass. In both cases you pay up to stay in the historic resort town.

Unless you’re a tight wad that is. And Tignes has a great vibe going on.
But I do agree on Aspen/Snowmass although with young kids we had a great time staying at Snowmass.

 

[Tony Crocker]

In both cases you pay up to stay in the historic resort town.

That is a statement of fact, not necessarily a recommendation. In trying to convince James to go to Val d'Isere, I knew even before this potshot

wow, you can't put lipstick on this village.

that Tignes would be a non-starter for him despite the lower pricing. In my case I also find the skiing logistics better being based in Val d'Isere.

As for Aspen/Snowmass, even though we prefer to stay in Aspen, I balked at the insane hotel pricing last week, and also in 2014 when we were there for a week starting January 1. But since we have a car we drove to Aspen for dinners. I don't think I've had a dinner in Snowmass despite staying there 2 nights this time and 6 in 2014. In 2014 we had a lot of bar menu dinners in Aspen. One of those was at Cache Cache, an Aspen institution for 37 years. Sadly, Cache Cache no longer has a bar menu and even by Aspen standards it's now overpriced. Food was excellent but 50% more expensive than equal quality dinners at Truffle Pig in Steamboat and the next night in Aspen at Matsuhisa.

You can argue that skiing logistics are are better staying in Snowmass than Aspen with the exception that buses between Snowmass and Highlands are less frequent.

Same reason why aspen is tolerable holiday weeks and summit county gets clobbered.

Last week was spring break for many places including much of Colorado's public schools and we braved 2 days at Copper, one at Vail and one at A-Basin. I mainly noticed the number of bodies where 2 or 3 high speed lifts unload at the same place. I am not put off by this as much as James because I gravitate toward lower density sectors of the mountain when I'm actually skiing.

In terms of lift lines the longest was ~20 minutes for Steamboat's new Wild Blue gondola, a longer ride than the Jackson or Snowbird tram and thus worth the wait sometimes. The Cirque poma at Snowmass is low capacity and was 10-15 minutes every time, but that was the last day of the trip and I didn't care because I wanted to use my remaining energy to ski that terrain.

Otherwise we did not wait more than 5 minutes anywhere (including the powder day at Vail) except for two mechanical stoppages, Woodward at Copper and that poma at Snowmass.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Didn't see very many actual old structures in town

I noticed this ^^ too; however, Val d'Isere village doesn't come off as new and sterile.

In trying to convince James to go to Val d'Isere, I knew (...) that Tignes would be a non-starter for him despite the lower pricing.

The only time that I can recall staying in newer purpose-built lodging like @Sbooker at Tignes was seven years ago at Isola. The village and base buildings were in the ghastly East German, prefabricated-concrete style as was the apartment building. That said; it was less of a buzzkill than I was expecting due to the lift proximity and once on-mountain it's a varied and scenic ski area with cute chalets and huts as you can see in the pix. I'd certainly go back during a non-peak period.

 

[EMSC]

I also find the skiing logistics better being based in Val d'Isere.

I have no idea how I pulled off the near perfect logistics for Val d'Isere. We stayed at Hôtel Les Crêtes Blanches which is across the street from the P0 parking garage in the heart of town. Funky weird bathrooms and not much to look at rooms wise but clean enough, huge buffet breakfast, free ski locker downstairs, only ~one block from the slopes and in the heart of the rest of town, only a 5+ min walk to meet up with the guide. All for the price of ~235euro for two of us per room. Goal is to ski and be out and about, not be in the room, so it worked out great. All the other pricing in Val d'Isere itself was well over 400eur per room per night.

I am not put off by this as much as James because I gravitate toward lower density sectors of the mountain when I'm actually skiing.

I'm pretty sure James has an allergic reaction to even a single crowd to be avoided. Which is ironic given that he lives in Jersey right next to one of the largest cities in the world .

Val d'Isere village doesn't come off as new and sterile.

Agreed.

 

[ChrisC]

On the flip side, when I was in Andermatt in March 2020, two Swiss skiers had gone to British Columbia in January to do the Powder Highway. It rained on them at Whitewater and Red, and it froze solid at Fernie. That got one or two OK/packed powder days at Lake Louise and Kicking Horse.

Disappointed—yes. They live within 2 hours of St. Anton, Engelberg, Andermatt, and Davos and 3 hours from St. Moritz, Zermatt, Verbier, etc. However, they had other good BC trips.

While at St. Anton in January 2019, I skied with a British couple taking 3 weeks off to ski in the Alps - only following the weather apps. They left St. Anton to Avoriaz mid-week to chase storms there. Sounds fun if you have that much time since maybe the largest Alps driving distance is 5 hours.

If I had continued into Austria in early February 2025, this year's trip after Engelberg would have been a disaster. After 1.5 meters at Courmayeur/Aosta, it was obvious to take a road trip/detour there and visit some great areas along the way (Grimmentz-Zinal and Andermatt).

About always needing a guide in Europe: not really. Switzerland has many Yellow Itineraries that are avalanche-controlled but not otherwise maintained. Some of the best routes at Verbier, Grimmentz-Zinal, Zermatt, and Davos have this designation.

Also, many areas have guided groups to join in the $100-150 zone. Combined with a $50-75 lift ticket, you still come out ahead of the US/Canada. And if you search midweek, you can often stay slopeside/walking distance for $100/night.

 

[Sbooker]

I’m easily amused. I thought this was interesting. Europe and North America latitudes.