Mountain High: Saving $ or Drought Survival Mode?

[Mike Bernstein]

Good stuff.

There's no need to read anything into what I write other than the words you can see. I've ridden the gondola at Stowe. It means what it says. rfarren said I was wrong, like he would know LOL.

Before that, I said the [Vermont] challenge is definitely there. But most challenging doesn't necessarily mean the most fun, most preferable. Yikes, I could leave my left ski at the bottom of the hill, then try doing a lap I guess.

But there's the problem - most fun is in the eye of the beholder. It's entirely subjective. Based on your comments, it doesn't appear as though you got a lot of exposure to the best of what VT had to offer, so it's not necessarily fair to make judgments with so little info.

The stuff out here may be more fun for YOU, and preferable to YOU, but that doesn't make it objectively so. Maybe it just fits your style of skiing better. Either way, it would be better if you had gotten a good dose of the great off-piste in the northern Greens so you could draw your conclusions from a more complete knowledge of the relative merits.

 

[ShiftyRider]

Either way, it would be better if you had gotten a good dose of the great off-piste in the northern Greens so you could draw your conclusions from a more complete knowledge of the relative merits.

Okay, I'll check it out. Thanks!

Right under the lift was my style, Liftline and National.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I thought his picture was taken from above the bottom of ch 1 at Baldy, WAY over on lookers' right above that little cliff area. On the far side of the canyon below, I can see the exit of Eric's with that little road/traverse that continues on up the far wall of that canyon. Did I just completely miss that?

Mike is correct, that's definitely Baldy's lower fire road on the hill across the parking lot. I've been out there past Bentley's a few times (patrol pulled my ticket once) and yes it's steeper and more exposed than face of Waterman, Goat or Starr. There's a cliff band out of view below the 2 skiers; in the biggest snow years a few chutes get covered to get through that.

Liftline and National (if ungroomed) at Stowe ~= Emile's at Baldy. Advanced runs, but both areas have much tougher ones. I have expressed the opinion before that in terms of both in-bounds and slackcountry terrain Mt. Baldy and Mt. Mansfield are comparable.

 

[J.Spin]

I had read a few of the first posts in this thread, but didn't really follow along because it seemed mostly about snowmaking at an area that I wasn't really familiar with; then it seemed to balloon to 9 pages and I figured that it must have expanded beyond just snowmaking. It certainly did. It's been great having Mike's input on the two regions of the country, because that's the perspective that these discussions need. Hopefully the Stowe gondola issue is cleared up.

Re: Whiteface and Gore

I still don't see how Baldy, when it only has chair 3 operating- with a sole 1000ft vert- compares to either of those mountains when they are sitting at 80%+.

I've never been to Baldy (and I'm not sure what sort of terrain Chair 3 specifically offers) but I figured I'd inject a comment from another person that has skied in both regions, Denis Bogan from SkiVT-L. I can't say how much hyperbole Denis was putting into his Baldy area report when he wrote the quote below, and he may have been referring to just the backcountry or the combination of Baldy and the backcountry, but I found one comment very interesting when I saw it:

“If this were on the east coast, no serious skier would go anywhere else, which would of course ruin it.”

Perhaps he is talking about just the local backcountry? Anyway, I’d be interested in hearing comments from other folks that are familiar with what he’s talking about. Denis really likes Baldy; you can see his short trip report by clicking on the linked text above.

 

[rfarren]

I still don't see how Baldy, when it only has chair 3 operating- with a sole 1000ft vert- compares to either of those mountains when they are sitting at 80%+.

I've never been to Baldy (and I'm not sure what sort of terrain Chair 3 specifically offers) but I figured I'd inject a comment from another person that has skied in both regions, Denis Bogan from SkiVT-L. I can't say how much hyperbole Denis was putting into his Baldy area report when he wrote the quote below, and he may have been referring to just the backcountry or the combination of Baldy and the backcountry, but I found one comment very interesting when I saw it:

“If this were on the east coast, no serious skier would go anywhere else, which would of course ruin it.”

I think he was right to say what he said based on what many here say about its terrain. Be reminded that he visited during a big snow year. I would imagine his feeling would be much different if he had to upload and download due to lack of snow. I don't think he would have felt it was as good a mountain if he were stuck only on lift 3, which often happens, sometimes for whole seasons.

My only point was: when a mountain like whiteface is almost fully open, how does Baldy compare when only 30-40% of its terrain is open.

 

[rfarren]

There's no need to read anything into what I write other than the words you can see. I've ridden the gondola at Stowe. It means what it says. rfarren said I was wrong, like he would know LOL.

Before that, I said the [Vermont] challenge is definitely there. But most challenging doesn't necessarily mean the most fun, most preferable. Yikes, I could leave my left ski at the bottom of the hill, then try doing a lap I guess.

You never said that "[Vermont] challenge is definitely there." What you said was:

If somebody'd rather ski Vermont than Baldy, either they've never been to Baldy or they need lessons LOL.

Imply what you will from the above comment.
Finally 4 pages later you said:

I wouldn't rather ski Vermont cuz it sucks. The challenge is definitely there. On much flatter less fun slopes. Cuz the snow is firm.

Not only is that statement patently untrue, but it showed that you hadn't had much experience in Vermont. However, you weren't done. To prove you knew what you were talking about you refuted a thread posted by people in the know and said:

LOL I've ridden the gondola at Stowe. At the time it didn't look anything like that -- way smaller and I think red even on the inside.

And then you annoyingly put a that picture again with this brilliant commentary:

LOL...

I bet Walter Mitty thought he skied with ropes too.

Then you really showed your ignorance by putting up a picture of the old gondola at stowe with this great comment:

LOL, how embarrassing...

Of course there is no mention of the quite old lifts at Baldy, but that is neither here nor there. What we can get from the whole of your comments are:
1. You have skied vermont fewer time than the number of fingers on your right hand.
2. You jumped into the argument without any empirical evidence to back up what you were saying
3. You laugh like a little girl.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Denis Bogan's comments from a Vermont local support my point that Baldy's terrain is superior for expert skiers to anything in the East. I have never claimed that it's reliable for snow and have supplied extensive data on both the average and distribution of that reliability.

Be reminded that he visited during a big snow year.

No, he visited during a 70th percentile year with typical SoCal spring/variable conditions. No surprise as a strong eastern skier he was not fazed by the variable snow. It was not nearly as good as what Jojo O'Brien and I skied 3 weeks later.

My only point was: when a mountain like whiteface is almost fully open, how does Baldy compare when only 30-40% of its terrain is open.

Whiteface "almost fully open" still means all trail skiing and no off-piste. It may be challenging because the runs are long, steep and hardpacked, but Baldy with most of Thunder open still has lots of off-piste and tree skiing. Whiteface with trees and the Slides is skiable less often than chair 1/Eric's at Baldy and is thus properly compared to Baldy at 90+%. In either case I'll take Baldy. Northern Vermont is different. JSpin and others have amply documented that the trees (and presumably the Front Four, Paradise, etc.) are skiable under the "40-inch rule" for 3+ months on average minus maybe one week per month immediately following rain events. This is a far better track record than Baldy's and thus preferable over the long term.

 

[snowave]

I am puzzled by ShiftyRider's posts.

Join the crowd.

 

[Marc_C]

I am puzzled by ShiftyRider's posts.

Join the crowd.

I no longer have any idea what the hell Shifty is talking about or the points he's trying to make.
Nor does he.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I guess I partially understand the constant back and forth when people compare ski areas and/or regions, because the information may ostensibly be used to plan the where and when of a destination trip, but explain to me what this thread has devolved into. Baldy/SoCal vs. Stowe/New England: two regions that no one (who doesn't already live there) will visit just for the skiing.

What exactly is the point of proving that one is somehow better than the other?

 

[ShiftyRider]

I think we established that rfarren has a season pass to Okemo, but had to work today. Me, I went to Baldy.

Snipped from rfarren's latest post [while everybody else went skiing]...

I said the [Vermont] challenge is definitely there.

You never said that "[Vermont] challenge is definitely there."

I wouldn't rather ski Vermont cuz it sucks. The challenge is definitely there.

 

[rfarren]

I think we established that rfarren has a season pass to Okemo, but had to work today. Me, I went to Baldy.

Snipped from rfarren's latest post [while everybody else went skiing]...

I said the [Vermont] challenge is definitely there.

You never said that "[Vermont] challenge is definitely there."

I wouldn't rather ski Vermont cuz it sucks. The challenge is definitely there.

OMG...he didn't LOL. =D> =D> =D>


Btw the clarifying statement you made was:

challenge is definitely there. On much flatter less fun slopes. Cuz the snow is firm.

Showing that you don't quite understand the challenge of the terrain, but rather saying it was only challenging due to the snow conditions. I think you miss the point of those contesting your point of view.

 

[Tony Crocker]

challenge of the terrain

Agree. The confined lines on Mt. Mansfield may more than offset the fact that Mt. Baldy is consistently steeper. ShiftyRider and soulskier confuse challenge and preference. I am firmly in their camp in terms of preference for steeper, more wide open skiing. But I'm not going to argue that technical ski skills required are greater for Baldy than for Mansfield. Both are rather good training grounds for surviving variable/difficult snow conditions. Baldy skiers would also at those who said Mammoth was "icy" last week.

What exactly is the point of proving that one is somehow better than the other?

The above paragraph may help explain the "legs" of this thread. "Better" to most people means "preference." Those of us who learned to ski in the West tend to prefer the wide open steeps to confined trees. It's abundantly clear reading this and several other threads that many of the easterners disagree with that preference. I believe I'm on very solid ground in my arguments relating to snow conditions, length of season etc. East vs. West. But terrain preferences are subjective and vary by individual. joegm and the moguls are the classic example. 95+% of skiers (now, it wouldn't have been that way 30-40 years ago) would never even think about choosing where to ski based upon how good the bumps are.

 

[rfarren]

I believe I'm on very solid ground in my arguments relating to snow conditions, length of season etc. East vs. West.

You are on solid ground to some degree on those things, but I do think there are certain wholes in the picture that you create. For example, to say the snow conditions at places like Mountain High are equivalent season wide to SoVT might be accurate for on piste snow-making dependent trails, but in SoVT there are places like Stratton which sport a lot of treed terrain off trail. Whereas in another thread I saw this video of Mountain High:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCJAWjoaWs[/youtube]

Look at the snow to the side of the trail...there is none. Granted this could be the very base, as that is often where terrain parks are, however, even Hunter which gets very little natural snow has more snow off of the trails.

Also, you correctly show that the Eastern areas close terrain earlier than their western counterparts. However, there are many times where the closures are a result of lack of interest rather than lack of snow. That being said the off-piste most often doesn't survive past the first week of April.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Mountain High has complete snowmaking trail coverage but an inadequate water supply to keep them all covered. Thus not as reliable as Southern Vermont. Big Bear, which does have the water supply, is more reliable for snow surfaces (and demonstrated equal in open terrain) than SoVt due to low humidity, many fewer rain/freeze events, etc. Mountain High's off-piste/tree skiing is usable more often than Big Bear's but less often than Baldy/Waterman's as its natural snowfall is in between. Thunder Mt. is the only place in SoCal with any off-piste skiing now, and I suspect not much. However, if the storms predicted later this week materialize in enough force (I'd want a minimum of 2 feet), Thunder has enough of a base that it could be pretty good.

However, there are many times where the closures are a result of lack of interest rather than lack of snow.

That would be because the comparable regions like SoVt are 3 hours from the metro areas vs. 1-2 for the SoCal locals. The eastern areas that are under 2 hours are so much worse for spring snow preservation that they struggle to make even first of April.

I have some but not a lot of years data on Whiteface vs. Hunter on percent of terrain open (don't know what the answer is but fairly sure Hunter is better except very late season). No question Hunter gets more rain, but it's not the area with the "Iceface" nickname...

 

[rfarren]

However, there are many times where the closures are a result of lack of interest rather than lack of snow.

That would be because the comparable regions like SoVt are 3 hours from the metro areas vs. 1-2 for the SoCal locals. The eastern areas that are under 2 hours are so much worse for spring snow preservation that they struggle to make even first of April.

That is certainly true from NYC, not so from Boston.

I still have some problems with your rating system, although I don't think it's flawed:

On your website you estimate that Hunter's season score would be around 30. Certainly, they create a ton of snow, but their conditions are almost never better than Whiteface's (which you estimated a score of 25). Hunter's season is generally shorter, and they receive quite a bit more rain than Whiteface. I'm not sure how you were able to estimate that the season number would be higher at Hunter. Personally, I think that Whiteface's correlation is closer to NO'VT in preservation with it's northern location. I would think that the snow quality is more correlated to Quebec and the Lauretians, with fewer rain events than SoVT but less snow than NoVT.

On a side note I was looking at Killington's website, as you say they get around 250 inches a year, but according to their website their stake is at 4000ft the very top! Most of the skiing is below the summit, so I think that number is somewhat disingenuous. I wonder at what altitude Whiteface's stake is at, and for that matter Stowe's?

 

[rfarren]

I have some but not a lot of years data on Whiteface vs. Hunter on percent of terrain open (don't know what the answer is but fairly sure Hunter is better except very late season). No question Hunter gets more rain, but it's not the area with the "Iceface" nickname...

As a person with experience at both mountains, I would say that Whiteface's conditions are better 8 out of 10 days. The wind doesn't get to Hunter as it does to Whiteface, and Hunter's snowmaking capability is higher, but Hunter is a fraction of the size that Whiteface is. Percentage open isn't fair between the two as Hunter is smaller and the Slides open rarely due to Avy considerations. Again, I really feel the "Iceface" nickname is unfair, but that is another conversation altogether. I wonder what others (not me) who spend time skiing both regions think.

 

[Tony Crocker]

On that http://bestsnow.net/vrmthist.htm I spent a lot of time going through FTO reports trying to get Northern Vermont right. The other eastern regions were my best shot based upon snow data, general impressions from reports etc. Whiteface may share NoVt's altitude and rain incidence but it gets 60% of the snowfall and a lot of wind. I admit that those ratings are not precise and likely to miss some nuances and microclimates. I will get around to compare those percents open for Hunter and Whiteface sometime. I suspect I was impressed by fairly high percents open for Hunter vs. a lot of eastern places. I also suspected that average surface conditions are not worse at Hunter with its massive snowmaking firepower offsetting the higher rain incidence vs. Whiteface, but I would defer to local eyewitness opinion to the contrary.

 

[Marc_C]

On a side note I was looking at Killington's website, as you say they get around 250 inches a year, but according to their website their stake is at 4000ft the very top! Most of the skiing is below the summit,...

Understatement of the year winner!

I wonder at what altitude Whiteface's stake is at, and for that matter Stowe's?

Stowe's stake is somewhere around 3900' or so, but it's lifts only go to just above 3600'.
I have no idea about Whiteface.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Hunter for 6 seasons:
Dec. 15 62%
Jan. 1 76%
Jan. 15 76%
Feb. 1 83%
Feb. 15 83%
Mar. 1 85%
Mar.15 81%
Apr. 1 72%
These are better numbers than Cannon except for March 1, and a lot better in early season.

Whiteface I only started tracking in 2008-09. Early season is worse than Hunter, mid and late season better.