The Apocalypse in the Kitchen

[Patrick]

The people who live in the big eastern metro areas and claim to be passionate about skiing or other outdoor activities, that's where I see the disconnect.

I hope you don't include any Canadian cities with that remark. :roll: Okay, maybe you can include Toronto. :wink: Big Eastern Metro, probably not, right??? :shock:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Montreal and Quebec City have more convenient locations to skiing. I have no idea whether the "outdoor culture" is more prevalent than in NYC/Boston.

 

[rfarren]

The people who live in the big eastern metro areas and claim to be passionate about skiing or other outdoor activities, that's where I see the disconnect.

As MarcC observed, it's not part of the culture with very many people in those places compared to western metro areas. So in addition to the outdoor recreation being lower in quality and less convenient, the odds of meeting a like-minded life partner are also much lower. I see some of this in L.A. Lots of outdoor active people, but many of them are here to avoid cold weather.

One of the reasons I am moving to L.A. is that I will have better, closer, access to the outdoors, but not take too big of a hit on the culture side of things. Indeed, I don't expect L.A. to be NYC; I may become a slave to a car. However, that car can take me out of the city regularly. Whereas, in a city like New York, you have to pay a second rent just to keep a car.

 

[Admin]

Indeed, I don't expect L.A. to be NYC; I may become a slave to a car. However, that car can take me out of the city regularly. Whereas, in a city like New York, you have to pay a second rent just to keep a car.

Congratulations, then, on picking the second most expensive metro area in the U.S.

 

[rfarren]

Congratulations, then, on picking the second most expensive metro area in the U.S.

Its all relative. You make more when the cost of living is higher. If I had lived in Detroit, I could have payed a mere $280 in rent. However, my earning potential would've been much less than what it is in NYC.

 

[Admin]

That's true but only to a point. For example, my employer is based in L.A. I've looked at the salary differential they pay if I were to work there and my effective standard of living is much, much higher here than it could ever be in SoCal.

 

[rfarren]

If I was only thinking about myself, I would be moving to SLC. It would be a no brainer. However, the theme of this thread is about how we deal with compromise.

 

[Admin]

I'm not making any judgments about why or how, I understand...I'm just pointing out cost of living.

 

[riverc0il]

Its all relative. You make more when the cost of living is higher. If I had lived in Detroit, I could have payed a mere $280 in rent. However, my earning potential would've been much less than what it is in NYC.

These is a fair balance on both sides of the pay versus life style issue. On one hand, it is sometimes hard to find good paying professional jobs in ski country. On the other hand, when you do find a good paying professional job in ski country, even if the pay rate is much less than the bigger cities, you still come out on top because you can afford sensational real estate on the cheap and a few nice cars for a family and still have tons of cash left over. We would most certainly still be renting in the city but easily could afford a rather nice location up here for a quarter of the price of what this would cost in the city. We do not even combine for six figures but there is something to be said for having a great home on a river, with a view of the mountains, in a location we both love.

On the flip side, you have to earn a ton of money in a city job to make up for the high cost of living including buying a house (the biggest money factor, IMO). I think two people have to have really good paying jobs in the six figures to make city professional jobs work out better than most ski country professional jobs. And as Tony is right to point out, lots of the best skiing is actually nearby some metro areas such as SLC et al. Living in a big city to make lots of money is a lifestyle decision, there certainly are other choices while still retaining good paying jobs that allow for a comfortable lifestyle and lots of skiing. I put lifestyle above earnings potential every time.

 

[Geoff]

Montreal and Quebec City have more convenient locations to skiing. I have no idea whether the "outdoor culture" is more prevalent than in NYC/Boston.

Boston, as a college town, has always had a fair amount of "outdoor culture". I guess as video games and television have made children sedentary, it's probably declining but Boston has an abnormally high number of 20-year-olds for a metro area that size.

 

[rfarren]

These is a fair balance on both sides of the pay versus life style issue. On one hand, it is sometimes hard to find good paying professional jobs in ski country. On the other hand, when you do find a good paying professional job in ski country, even if the pay rate is much less than the bigger cities, you still come out on top because you can afford sensational real estate on the cheap and a few nice cars for a family and still have tons of cash left over. We would most certainly still be renting in the city but easily could afford a rather nice location up here for a quarter of the price of what this would cost in the city. We do not even combine for six figures but there is something to be said for having a great home on a river, with a view of the mountains, in a location we both love.

On the flip side, you have to earn a ton of money in a city job to make up for the high cost of living including buying a house (the biggest money factor, IMO). I think two people have to have really good paying jobs in the six figures to make city professional jobs work out better than most ski country professional jobs. And as Tony is right to point out, lots of the best skiing is actually nearby some metro areas such as SLC et al. Living in a big city to make lots of money is a lifestyle decision, there certainly are other choices while still retaining good paying jobs that allow for a comfortable lifestyle and lots of skiing. I put lifestyle above earnings potential every time.

To me this is the best argument made yet. I couldn't agree more. If money is your passion, then cities are where you should be. This is a conflict I struggle with constantly living in NYC, and it may not disappear in LA. I have to make some concessions because my fiancee' is an actress. I teach music and got my college degree in music, so NYC always seemed logical. This is all good and great, except, I moved to NYC to be music bum, when all I really want to be now is a Ski bum. :?

 

[Patrick]

Montreal and Quebec City have more convenient locations to skiing.

Outdoor culture in Ottawa is probably higher than Montreal. :shock: :shock: However it's not Alpine skiing, it's cross-country skiing, skating, kayaking, whitewater, canoeing, camping, etc.

 

[Harvey]

I see little point in arguing where to live with those like Sharon and Riverc0il who live in more rural and unspoiled environments. The people who live in the big eastern metro areas and claim to be passionate about skiing or other outdoor activities, that's where I see the disconnect.

I'm living in here in downtown MASH.

I ended up here after college in 1981, without a job, livin off my folks until I could figure it out. Was a starving artist and a teacher for about 5 years (ceramics mostly). Ultimately, completely broke, I took a job delivering packages for a advertising agency. I've been with the same company for 22 years, and now I'm a minority owner. It's a great company, and I walk to work from a house that is basically paid off. The situation allows us to save over 25% of what we make even with a small child and wife who works parttime. It's unlikely that I could sell this house for that much more than what I would buy up there.

I do consider myself pretty darn passionate about skiing. It would be REALLY hard to, put all the above aside, to move to North River (our property near Gore) where there are few professional jobs.

Believe me I've thought about it. The folks who live up there are fantastic, solid people. They work incredibly hard to make ends meet. Lucky ones have health insurance.

I don't consider myself passionate about money. If I was, I could do the same job in NYC for a lot more. When others are counting on you - it's hard to make that jump. I just don't think I can do it. Yet.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

The people who live in the big eastern metro areas and claim to be passionate about skiing or other outdoor activities, that's where I see the disconnect.

Please explain how my or Harvey's passion for skiing is any more disconnected from yours, in a big west coast metro area.

 

[Harvey]

Please explain how my or Harvey's passion for skiing is any more disconnected from yours, in a big west coast metro area.

James - I still don't think that avatar is you, but I can see it somehow, next to this quote.

On the substance of that line... I've been thinking about our passion for skiing. CB and and I took a gamble, some would say a big gamble when we got married, fairly late in life (me 44, her 32). We had no decision about children. She didn't know what she wanted, I didn't think I wanted one.

When she decided she did want one, we had to cut EVERYTHING to the bone. The two things we kept in our budget were aggressive saving and skiing. In reality a lot of the motivation for saving for me is the hope that we can live a ski based life while we've still got the chops to ski.

This is why all my reports come from Gore*. The cost of a week at Stowe or Jay is probably equal to what I spend all year at Gore, if you look at variable cost. I'd bet all of our cost figured in including real estate, my 30 days/ year at Gore is cheaper than 30 days at Stowe.

None of our other activities go beyond bike riding, hiking, or camping. There isn't really any cost associated with that stuff for us.

That seems pretty passionate to me. Just because what I can afford may be less amazing than what someone else can afford, doesn't mean I love it any less.

*Trees are awesome too.

 

[jasoncapecod]

James - I still don't think that avatar is you, but I can see it somehow, next to this quote

Nor do I..
He's more BJ Hunnicut then Frank

You know something the East Coast aint so bad.. With in 5hrs of my house(metro ny) I have Fantastic skiing , world class rockclimbing(45min) , world class windsurfing(da cape), great trout fishing and saltwater fishing plus countless other things. Yeah the weather sometimes sucks, but at least the ground doesn't shake and i don't think my neighbor hood will be struck by a wild fire.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Congratulations, then, on picking the second most expensive metro area in the U.S.

2005 cost of living relative indexes (100 = median U.S)
1) NYC 212
2) SF 177
3) Honolulu 162
4) LA 153
5) San Diego 141
6) DC 138
7) Boston 137
8 ) Alaska 131
9) Chicago 129
T10) Philly 119
T10) Seattle 119
Others of note:
Portland 110
Denver 104
Salt Lake 97

Looks like rfarren will live much better in LA if income is similar. And if you stay out of the premium Westside and beach communities, moving to SoCal from Boston or DC is a wash in terms of cost of living. If the "Apocalypse in Real Estate" continues, maybe SoCal would eventually become a compromise location for admin and spouse .

Harvey's post shows why the individual's situation often overrides the generalizations. If one's job, built up over the years, provides a very good mix of standard of living and available recreation time, it makes little sense to give it up for a superficially more attractive location. Sharon and I made this same observation about our situations a year ago.

In news announced this week my retirement is likely to occur as soon as this summer. Not a surprise, my department was almost certain to be moved out of L.A. within 2-3 years max. So the quality of my future ski seasons will be due more to flexibility and less to high cost trips.

With in 5hrs of my house(metro ny) I have Fantastic skiing

We've been around the block on this a few times: 5 hours away from skiing that's great only on very short notice is not something that most ski fanatics on FTO would accept.

world class rockclimbing(45min)

I'll defer to admin on this one, but i'm pretty sure most western metro areas offer comparable.

world class windsurfing(da cape)

This one I know something about from friends who have moved East from SoCal. In most East Coast locations summer is perversely the least windy season of the year. Yes, Cape Cod is supposed to be good, but those friends say the physical demands of windsurfing are such that you need to be within easy daytrip distance to maintain stamina/proficiency.

great trout fishing and saltwater fishing plus countless other things

I'll defer to others who know more

Yeah the weather sometimes sucks

About 80% of the time from what I saw during 4 years in New Jersey. No wonder most people in NYC/MASH want to stay indoors more than we do out here.

 

[jasoncapecod]

Tony your good..

But here's the kicker. Besides L.A. where out west can i get good pizza and a real pastrami on rye

 

[Marc_C]

But here's the kicker. Besides L.A. were out west can i get good pizza and a real pastrami on rye :wink:

Salt Lake City, at Settebello and NY Deli, respectively.

From the Settebello web site:

In 1984 a group of pizzaioli, led by Antonio Pace, sought to preserve the identity and integrity of Napoletana pizza. From this struggle with the Italian government was born the association Verace Pizza Napoletana or Vera Pizza Napoletana (VPN).

While forms of foccacia had been around for centuries, it was in Napoli where tomatoes were first placed on round discs of bread and cooked in brick wood fired ovens sometime in the late 1600's. Mozzarella also made its debut on pizza in Napoli in the mid 1800's if not earlier. While it is widely believed that the classic Napoli style pizza, the margherita, was invented by a pizzaiolo in 1889, there is written evidence that a pizza with tomatoes and mozzarella was already being made in Napoli much earlier.

It is this history that Signore Pace and others are trying to preserve through the VPN.

On May 16, 2007 Settebello Pizzeria was certified by the President of the US Chapter of the VPN, Peppe Miele, as only the 16th member in the United States. Settebello is the only certified member in the state of Utah. We will always strive to preserve the art of pizza making as it has been done in Napoli for over 200 years.



Member Charter:

ASSOCIATION OF "VERACE PIZZA NAPOLETANA"

"Verace Pizza Napoletana" is an international non-profit association. The objectives of the association are the following:

To cultivate the culinary discipline of the Neapolitan pizza, with its requisite preparation, ingredients and manner of cooking.

To protect and promote the authentic Neapolitan pizza and as a consequence, the association members who fulfill the culinary requirements and characteristics of the Neapolitan pizza.

To defend the origin of the authentic pizza and the tradition of the pizza as it began in Naples, Italy.

To designate by the Verace Pizza Napoletana certification mark those pizzerias which respect the culinary tradition of the Neapolitan pizza and where such pizza may be enjoyed.

THE CULINARY DISCIPLINE OF THE "VERACE PIZZA NAPOLETANA"

The certification mark of Verace Pizza Napoletana is reserved exclusively for those establishments whose pizzas fulfill the following standards:

"Verace Pizza Napoletana" must be made from the following raw ingredients:

Flour
Natural Yeast, Yeast of Beer
Water

The pizza dough must be worked with the hands or with a mixer approved by the Association's committee. After rising, the dough must be shaped with the hands and without a rolling pin or any mechanical means.

The cooking of the pizza must take place on the surface of the oven and not in any pan or container. The oven must be a wood burning oven and structured in a bell shape and of special brick with the floor of the pizza oven constructed of volcanic stone. The oven must be fired with only wood and kindling.

The classic pizzas and their respective basic ingredients are the following:

Marinara (Napoletana): Tomato, olive oil, oregano, and garlic.
Margherita: Tomato, olive oil, grated Parmesan, and fior-di-latte or mozzarella.
Ripieno (Calzone): Ricotta, fior-di-latte or mozzarella, olive oil, and salami.
Formaggio e Pomodoro: Tomato, olive oil, and grated Parmesan

All types of pizza are agreeable to basil leaves.

Variations of pizzas are recognized if they are informed by the Neapolitan tradition of pizzas and are not in contrast with the rules of gastronomy, with judgment reserved to the Association's committee.

The pizza, when eaten, should present the following characteristics: soft, well cooked, fragrant and enclosed in a high, soft edge of crust.

 

[Admin]

If the "Apocalypse in Real Estate" continues, maybe SoCal would eventually become a compromise location for admin and spouse .

Too darned crowded for me. I nearly get claustrophobic just driving the freeways out there. Mammoth is just too far from L.A. for me to be happy with that, and there are no other solid choices within 5 hours (SoCal skiing is too erratic for me). I'll be the first to admit that 4 seasons here have turned me into a prima donna.

But here's the kicker. Besides L.A. were out west can i get good pizza and a real pastrami on rye :wink:

Salt Lake City, at Settebello and NY Deli, respectively.

And for NY-style pizza, Big Apple Pizza about a mile from my house is pretty damned good.

You can take Marc_C's endorsements to the bank. He and his wife are true foodies in every sense of the word.